Mon, 08/04/2008 - 6:53am — lambert
Yes, Bill Clinton in a just-published ABC interview.
That Bill Clinton -- the last elected Democratic President allowed to take office -- should have to go on the teebee and say this just boggles the mind.
Well done, Obama.
Well done HoHo, well done Donna, well done Nancy, well done Harry.
Well done, FKD.
Your party, your invites, your choice of music, your caterer.
Enjoy!
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Comments
Nice framing in ABC's subhead
"Insists, 'I Am Not a Racist,' Despite Anger Over His S.C. Comments"
"Insists" is one step short of "falsely claims."
No doubt the "Path to 9/11" team is working up a new, insightful, and fairminded documentary on this topic right now.
They just can't help themselves
I could barely get past that that unsubtle editorializing, VL.
The damage done to Bill Clinton is damage to the Democratic legacy and message. It's another moral obligation of Obama and the party to work far harder than they have to undo it.
I've yet to see any evidence...
That the media folk want to help themselves (be less toxic) or that the Obama folk are working at all to undo what they've done.
HoHo?
Does it go well with Clamato?
HoHo == Howard Dean
It's his childhood nickname. I swear I read it in The New Yorker, which ran a profile of him, but I can't find the link.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
And what the hell did he have to do with that interview?
Come on, Lambert--that's too broad a brush. Dean never implied Bill is racist. That allegation is rooted in the Obama campaign.
Silence
is complicity.
Nothing to do with the interview
But surely it's true -- IMNHSO opinion, is true -- that the Democratic establishment, among whom I would include Harry, Nancy, Donna Brazile, and definitely Howard Dean, DNC chair (see RBC debacle) worked actively for Obama?
And they certainly did nothing to stop it all when it was happening. I mean, on misogyny, Deans' excuse was that he didn't have cable. I guess that goes for false smears of racism, too?
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Democratic legacy?
I have a very clear impression that Obama and his campaign want to cut themselves off from this legacy. (And not only the Democratic legacy, but the legacy of progressive activism in this country such as the antiwar movement.)
He's working for the idea that he is doing something radically new that's never been tried before. All previous efforts were flawed and failed and there is nothing he can learn from them except what not to do.
He's deliberately cutting his "movement" off at the roots. I don't think that there will be any effort to "undo the damage" because this is not "damage" from his point of view, but part of the plan.
---------------
We can't afford not to have single-payer!
Bingo!
Or what I feel, at least. "It's not damage from his standpoint." Exactly.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
I've seen a number of these kinds of stories...
...and they all exhibit an extreme level of amnesia. No mention of the false "fairy tale is racist" crap, and no mention of what Clyburn did that pissed Clinton off (saying that Hillary's LBJ/MLK remarks denigrated MLK).
Gee I guess I have to get cable now
Then I won't be racist or sexist! Who knew?
Reminds me of that moment in Notting Hill where Hugh Grant finds out about Julia Roberts's other boyfriend from a tabloid and says, "My whole life ruined because I don't read "Hello Magazine.""
IOW
"I don’t think that there will be any effort to “undo the damage” because this is not “damage” from his point of view, but part of the plan."
As Microsoft might say "It's not a bug, it's a feature".
-----------------------------
Around these parts we call cucumber slices circle bites
-----------------------------
Around these parts we call cucumber slices circle bites
Big Dawg
told Clyburn to pound sand. Good for him.
OxyCon
Coward Dean should have stood up
...when President Clinton was under attack and said:
"To imply that President Clinton is a racist is absurd. No one has done more to bring this country together and tear down racial barriers than President Clinton. So I want this nonsense to stop right now. This isn't good for the Democrat party to be attacking one of our party's most prominent leaders with this baseless slander."
But Dean didn't do that, and the reason why he didn't do it is because he was complicit. He wanted to take down the Clintons and he was active in making sure that all the rules were tilted in Obama's favor. Dean made sure that Obama would "win" and that the Clintons would be destroyed. It's what he wanted.
How the Hell can someone who touts his "50 state strategy" for years, go and take away the voice of two entire states? Seriously?
Especially Florida!
OxyCon
Any attempt to deny that Bill Clinton is a racist
makes you a racist too.
That's what it says in the Obama rules.
------------------------------------------------
“But hysteria is all the rage these days, I guess” - gqm
x
------------------------------------------------
“I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat.” - Will Rogers
But I already know....
... I'm a racist, since I was a Hillary supporter. So why worry? May as well be hung for a sheep as a lemming. Or something.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Bill v. Barack
Good for Bill, fight back with the truth!
Barack's campaign calling Bill out on racism is not only wrong but hypocritical when the Obama proposals on helping African Americans are so thin over the ground and Bill actually did so much over 8 years--and doesn't his Foundation still do things too? Isn't that the GOP strategy of attack where you are weakest? I mean, according to Obama's Father's Day sermon, all those black fathers should just pull themselves up. I love the people who are African-American who are following Obama around now and asking him what he's doing for African Americans (which they say is nothing.)
(Sorry no time for linky goodness right now--all easily found though by googling news and recent discussions.)
actually...
Isn’t that the GOP strategy of attack where you are weakest?
Karl Rove's strategy was to attack an opponent's strength. I think that's what you mean, right?
Legacy
The insane part is that if Obama wins it'll be because of Clinton's legacy, in terms of competence and especially the economy, the latter of which he specifically trashed in PA, saying it was no better than Bush I. Better yet, Obama made a not too subtle dig at HRC when he said, "President Clinton's not on the ballot." I wonder if McCain will turn his trashing of the Clinton economy and that quote against him? I mean, when the only "D" legacy you can even claim, by association no less, is that of Pelosi, Dean, and Reid, you're in trouble.
To witness a day when Bill Clinton of all people has to declare that he isn't a racist is beyond depressing. To realize it's because of disgusting smears by fellow Democrats is simply surreal, like a damn out of body experience.
Asset stripping
follows a hostile takeover. (In fact, it often pays for the takeover.)
And so with the legacy of competence and the economy.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Bill Clinton, in his own words
From the same ABC article Lambert links to:
Well, good gosh and golly. Bill Clinton isn't mad at Obama, never has been and isn't now. Pretty clear about that, but who does Bill blame?
Bill Clinton thinks that the MSM (and some bloggers, no doubt) are at fault for misrepresenting what was happening. And he doesn't blame Obama.
But will he show some support for Obama, demonstrate without question to one and all that there are no hard feelings?
Far more significant than this continued drumbeat by the media to try and divide the Democratic Party and progressives, apparently with fair success in some quarters.
Bill and Hillary aren't unhappy with Obama. Whatever happened in the campaign that was untoward they blame on the media, not Obama. And who does the MSM work for? The corporatist Plutocrats, the people who want to continue Republican rule. What is their agenda? Divide the Democrats, denigrate the Democratic candidate, keep the presidency in Republican hands.
I find myself in agreement with Bill and Hillary Clinton on both matters here before us; first, that the principle if not the complete blame for allegations of racism should be laid at the media while Obama should be held blameless and second, the most important task at hand is the defeat of the Republican Party in November - especially with regard to the presidency.
It was MSM media manipulation then, and it is MSM media manipulation now - by Kate Snow and Jake Tapper here, Kate Seelye elsewhere, Politico again, the same people from the same organizations beating the same propaganda drums, divide and conquor. For myself, I refuse to dance to their tune.
I think Bill was being politic...
...in saying he wasn't mad at/didn't blame Obama. He's too smart to not recognize Obama's role in this, and too "political" to call Obama out on it in the middle of a presidential campaign.
Not being a mind-reader
hard enough sorting out my own, I just take Bill at his word on this. He could as easily have said that he was angry with Obama but all is forgiven now and we're moving on, that would have served the same purpose. Instead, he said what he did - that he is not now and never has been mad at Obama - and until I hear differently from him I'll just go with the plain meaning of his words.
Doesn't address the other points I made, that the most important agenda item now for Bill and Hillary is beating the Republicans (I'm with them) and that all of this outrage repetition from the MSM/VRWC
is designed to fan the flames of anger from the primary and keep Democrats and progressives at each other's throats, to the benefit of Republicans and the Plutocrats.
Not until after the election, he can't
Check the transcript -- and RL calls me, so I can't get the link -- and you'll see that he says he'll be happy to tell the whole story, after the election. You can see him dancing around that point throughout. Gotta go.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Very Interesting
He said the same thing in that long NYMag article about the Black community in Harlem growing disenchanted with him. "I won't talk about the election now."
Saw that, Lambert
guess we read it differently. I don't see anything there as even a hint that he's upset with Obama over anything, but he sure as hell is pissed off at the MSM - and at some people he thought were friends.
Write when you can, I'll be around.
Thanks for the intimation that our upset with Obama
Is us falling for MSM/VRWC
tricks. Dammit, I knew we should have built a detailed record of our concerns about Obama over the last two years!
Do I do "intimations"?
Really? Am I not blunt enough? Too coy to be clearly understood?
Come now; I made no such broad assertions, said nothing to condemn all of your concerns over Obama. IIRC, and you will if you stop and think about it, I've shared many of those same concerns and done so here quite openly.
I just don't share this one; neither, it appears, do Bill and Hillary Clinton. If, knowing that, you want to proceed in a manner that can only be described as (goddess help me) Hillary-er Than Thou, far be it from me to stand in your way. I'm just expressing my opinion.
On this particular matter, who is to blame for the Clintons being portrayed as racist and who has the most to gain from it being propagated, I say the blame is with the MSM/VRWC
who whipped up trivialities and the ex-Republican (not progressive) bloggers who jumped on it and furthered the frenzy. The gain from perpetuating it goes to the Republicans.
Oh, silly me!
It had occurred me -- in an entirely hypothetical manner, of course -- that Obama Himself might have something to gain from propagating the lie that the Clintons were racist, just after his loss in NH, and just before the primary in SC.
And since -- as you yourself say, bringiton -- we're entirely in cui bono mode here, so there's no question of what really happened, is your argument that Obama had nothing to gain from portraying the Clintons as racist?
Whatever floats your boat....
My contention
is that it helped the MSM/VRWC
attempt to discredit Clinton, to help them and the Republican Party get the candidate they felt would be most vulnerable and easier to beat in the general.
Did it benefit Obama? Some perhaps in the short term, but certainly not entirely and actually not very much; he had the black vote already, 80-90% of it, and any gains among whites or Latinos would be more than offset by those who saw it as a repugnant tactic. As a deliberate campaign strategy it was little gain since it pissed off huge blocks of Democratic voters that he would later want for the general.
Who it did serve well were the Republicans, trashing both Clinton and Obama at the same time, damaging both of them at the time and building up a damaging narrative for use in the general election. That it was pressed by the MSM in their role as tools of the Plutocrats is not, for me, so difficult to understand.
Use your own criterion, Lambert; who has the most to gain? Who stood to profit the most from spreading the falsehood about Clinton then, and who stands to benefit the most from continuing to perpetuate the "conflict" now? Do you really think the ABC reporter Kate Snow didn't pick that line of questioning deliberately, out of all the possible topics one might ask in the middle of an African tour focused on the AIDS crisis? Does it not make your antennae twitch when you see that Jake Tapper "contributed" to editing the remarks?
This is the same MSM that we, you and I, have been excoriating for some time; I don't trust them now, and believe that they are largely if not entirely in the service of the VRWC. Why do you think this issue keeps being brought up, after Bill has repeatedly said he doesn't blame Obama? Who does it serve?
Simple answers to simple questions
Q. Who had the most to gain by painting Hillary Clinton and her husband as racists, arguably the most politically damaging charge for any modern American candidate (see: "macacagate")?
A. Barack Obama.
How so?
Specifics, please.
How much gain with what demographic, for both the primary and the general election?
I say the big gain is for the Republicans, and peeling off progressives, depressing the left, is exactly what they'd hoped for.
The long term gain...
... may well be the Republicans (assuming them, arguendo to be systematically separate from (a) the press and (b) the Republicans) but the gain in the short term? Obama, all the way, as VL points out.
As far as the "specifics please" tactic, I know I'm the one who always asks for linky goodness, as a method. However, in this case, I have a nasty feeling that the only kind of specifics bringiton would accept are (a) a direct admission by Axelrod et al, or (b) a Clinton interview with makes the charge. Neither will happen during the campaign, obviously.
For myself on this issue, the behavior on the OFB
online, and the silence of the Obama campaign, whether in regard to the online behavior, or the behavior of the press, speaks volumes.
The charges were "out there," and grant for the moment that bringiton's revisionist theory -- unstated by bringiton at the time, IIRC -- that the charge that the Obama campaign smeared the Clintons as racist is false, and instigated by the press to divide us. If so, then all the Obama campaign had to do -- both to unify the party, seize the high ground, and do the right thing -- was say the charges were baseless.
They were silent.
That means the charges had an effect they approved of.
And let me point out that a charge of racism is more than hard-edged politics. It's a smear that's deliberately intended to drive the target from public life, much as a charge of being a communist did in the McCarthy era.
Prior to SC
He did not have 80-90% of the black vote. There are certainly several reasons his support among African Americans went up, not the least of which was actually winning the Iowa caucus, but for you to claim that the African American vote was already in the bag for him is completely false. HRC had outstanding support among the African American community prior to the "RACISM" screeches from Clyburn and other Obama surrogates.
Coincidence, or cause-and-effect?
As you say, his support was lower than one might have expected early on, but began to swell when he won Iowa and appeared for the first time like he might be for real. Support for Obama began to shift in December, grew after he won Iowa and solidified by the time he reached SC. His increasing validity as a candidate precipitated the shift, not charges of racism.
It was both.
"His increasing validity as a candidate precipitated the shift, not charges of racism."
No reason for an either-or; obviously both were powerful driving forces in Obama's increasing AA vote.
The shift among black voters began in December '07
well before any charges of racism. It accelerated steadily through January, and it is to my eye undecipherable what all may have contributed to it. At the time, the charge-countercharge over racism was seen by one analyst as a negative for both Obama and Clinton, but not mentioned as a factor driving the shift in black vote:
Here's another discussion at the time, from MSNBC on January 26 following the SC primary where Obama got 80% of the black vote, and no mention at all is made of the racism charges.
Here's Bill Clinton just before the SC primary, again in his own words and raising race but not charges of racism as a factor; and this was back when he was "Crazy Bill" popping off and letting his anger show. Note that racism, and charges of racism, was not a hot topic for the press at that time:
Does it really seem reasonable that blacks who initially supported Hillary suddenly forgot their earlier affection for her and Bill and bought into the idea that they both were closet racists? I don't think so, at least not to any meaningful degree. I think that as Obama appeared on national television and the black community heard him speak, they started to move to support him. When Obama showed he could win, in Iowa among white people, the black community robustly decided they wanted to back someone who looked like them on the premise (faulty or not) that he might actually identify with their struggles and do a better job of meeting their needs. That makes more sense to me.
The Clintons "Racism" was all the talk by mid-January
If you don't believe that played a substantial role in AA attitudes and voting... if you don't think hundreds of stories like this
with similar wall-to-wall TV coverage, affected the polls... there is no point in further discussion. Yours is simply an untenable position.
BTW, folks, that particular story contained this detail about Brazile sending an email to the media with a list of Clinton so-called "racebaiting":
I remember that quote of hers, but not the email. Is this widely known? That other Democratic leaders didn't smack her down for that crap is truly disgraceful. It's impossible to argue that we should not be angry at the FKD Party for the racist smears.
and of course
"No reason for an either-or; obviously both were powerful driving forces in Obama’s increasing AA vote."
That was my point. But bio just wants to pretend that the racism charges didn't happen. But if they did happen, they didn't matter. But they didn't happen.
Gingrich and Scaife did nothing wrong!
It's not like Bill and Hillary ever "made amends" with Gingrich and Scaife. Oh wait, they did. So we should all jump on board the Gingrich and Scaife ships. If the Clintons don't hold grudges against them publicly, they couldn't have done anything wrong.
Shoddy logic, gq
Did either Bill or Hillary ever say they had never been angry with Gingrich or Scaife? Don't believe so. Have both Gingrich and Scaife both said they had been wrong in what they had done? Yes, they have. I have no evidence before me that either Bill or Hillary has forgiven or forgotten, although they have decided to work with Gingrich when it suited their ends. As to Scaife, it was he who has apologized and tried to make amends; I see no evidence that either one of the Clintons has accepted that overture.
Neither of these people is a plausable comparator.
You're right
Hillary doesn't believe in redemption.
Never said otherwise
She's been very open about her belief in redemption. I believe in it as well; fully embrace the concept, in fact. Don't you?
But what has this got to do with what I wrote? Is it supposed to be a rebuttal, or are you really conceding I am right? Please be more specific, because the article you have linked to supports my contentions quite nicely.
You're right
That Hillary referenced Scaife and redemption together totally supports your contention:
Quite nicely, I might ad.
UPDATE: Since some may not follow the above link, here is Hillary answer to the a question about Scaife:
It's called a stiff upper lip and taking one for the team
For myself, I refuse to, um, whitewash the record:
http://journals.democraticunderground.co...
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?i...
Just be careful you don't, um, "blacklist" anyone
We've been through this before, probably not much to gain by a rehash, not looking to pick a fight, but....
That memo you reference from Alicia Whosis or whatever her name is was an internal distribution memo, the kind of blue-sky thing that a campaign would be remiss if it did not do, and somehow it got handed over to HuffPo. They put it up for all to see, the MSM jumped on it and whipped it into a campaign to divide the Democratic Party. The original memo was the work of a low-level staffer, a press secretary in SC, apparently not too bright, very unsophisticated and way too trusting, and there is no evidence that the leak was designed or implemented by the Obama campaign at any senior level. Obama condemned it and made the condemnation public.
This was, again, an MSM propaganda maneuver designed to sow dissent and distrust within the Democratic Party and the progressive community. Worked pretty well, apparently.
Ah, the over-zealous staffer
Check...
Thank you for that 'race memo' DU link, VL!
i was actually trying to find that link earlier today, i remembered that post from a while back.
i posted that link on another forum today, and it turns out that even relatively well-informed people dont't know all the gory details... it's amazing, really.
Who's divided?
Since Obama's going to protect me and my friend with the bleeding feet on universal health care, and with the way he stood up on FISA and offshore oil....
Oh, wait...
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
i want whatever you're smoking
you think the MEDIA is solely responsible for the "racist Clintons" meme? The Obama campaign is blameless? That isn't just stupid, it's nearly psychotic. You realize, of course, the active role the campaign played in smearing the RFK nonsense and the SC race memo? And you also realize that, angry as he is, WJC is too much a Democrat to publicly and directly trash his party's nominee?
It isn't just a river in Egypt.
And who is the media's candidate?
A fact, as evident by the coverage, that I think says it all.
I heartily disagree
It was the far left bloggers, who took their cue from Obama's campaign, who smeared the Clintons as racists, then the anti-Clinton media was all too happy to take the ball and run with it.
It was Obama who got the ball rolling. Then it was Josh Marshall, John Aravosis, Arianna Huffington, Matthew Iglesias, et. al., who took their cue from Obama's campaign and sifted through every word President Clinton said to see which words they could take out of context and smear him as a racist with. Then the media buried the hatchet right into President Clinton's back, with glee.
OxyCon
"far left" bloggers?
Sounds like a list of ex-Republicans to me. They only seemed as though they were leftish, because they finally couldn't stand the worst of the BushCo rabid reactionary authoritarianism. That doesn't make them leftist, not by a long shot. Even Bill Buckley rejected BushCo, and that didn't qualify him as "far left."
If you have hard evidence that Obama senior staff, the Obama campaign per se and not some low-level foolish eager-beaver staffer, actually "got the ball rolling" then please provide it.
well, there's JJ Jr's remarks...
but what I think that Obama campaign spokeperson Bill Burton's response to questions about the whole MLK/LBJ thing ("people have a right to think what they want") was the signal that the Obama campaign wanted to go after Clinton as running a racist campaign.
Accusations of racism were merely the tool at hand
The blogs you mention subscribe to a stated agenda to transform the Democratic Party into their own image. Theirs is an authoritarian political ideology that seeks to achieve a political rebirth by promoting a movement of unity and strength on the back of the "old" party. That is why they trashed the Clintons. Go read Kos' book for a full description of how their desire is to move the party away from the traditional Dem values of FDR, Carter, and the Clintons.
BTW, I don't think "far left" means what you think it means, especially when used in regards to the bloggers you mention. The Far Left (wikipedia) "has been associated with ideologies such as communism, social anarchism, anarchist communism, left communism, anarcho-syndicalism, Marxist-Leninism, Trotskyism and Maoism." The self-promoters and aggrandizers over at that list of blogs? Yeah, not so far left.
Nor are these blogs progressive, despite how much they love to wear that term like a gimme cap. Progressive Democrats support ideas such as: counting all the votes, women's suffrage, economic progressivism and regulation, educational reform, social justice, worker's rights, welfare of society, and much more in that vein. For what it's worth, these are the folks I came to the dance with.
In a perfect world, it'd be great to have all the votes cast as they were earned, but that would not be in the best interest of the Democratic party. - DNC supporter after the 2008 roll call
VL
Ha ha ha ha. Thanks so much for doing just that!
What gets me the most is here is Obama going around repeatedly saying he wants to be like RONALD REAGAN, who did the horrible racist dogwhistle of starting his campaign in Philadelphia, MO, did his whole "states's rights" routine, which was a clear symbol at times for supporting prejudice, and who did his racist "welfare queen" routine, etc.--and Obama doesn't mention or disavow any of this Reagan behavior but lets his campaign call BILL CLINTON a racist?
if i may inject a little race baiting, from a different
perspective? to my mind, white folks and black folks, for once i am going to not put those terms in quote, seem to me to have very, very different understandings of what "racist" means. so i can understand a 'far left' or 'radical' critique of clinton, his years in power and his treatment of the programs and policies that affected non-whites the most, and understand why someone very harsh and unforgiving could call him a 'racist.' holding him to the highest standard, he failed to help those in need the most when they were attacked by purely racist motives and actors. the welfare act crap is one example, and the embargo against iraqis who had no control over their dictator's actions, could be said to be another.
furthermore, there are some radicals who believe that all white people in america are more or less racist, and that it is a simple matter of degree. that is, our culture is soaked in racist discourse, the privliges of whites so great, the oppression of nonwhite so normalized in our gov't, economic sphere, etc., that it's only possible with the greatest amount of education and action for a white person to "prove" that they are not racist. and even then, reversion back to the standard norm of white behavior is always a possibility.
now, i am not a person who endorses those kinds of views, and Common Sense Dyke agrees with lambert's basic point: it's ridiculous that Bill Clinton would have to go on national teevee to "prove" he's "not a racist." as far as powerful white men go, few have done more to show affinity to, and personal love for, nonwhites than Bill.
however, i do want to say that this "event" is reason # 4953975395877 that i believe that we're eventually going to have to just give up this whole category of race, all of us. all. of. us. and accept that we're a human family. because race is a "no win" game. and it always hurts someone, in the end, who like Bill, at least tried to do something about the impact of american racism against the nonwhite. for the stupidest of reasons. and that reason is because americans would rather talk about the latest "controversy of race" rather than the issues that, you know, actually have an impact upon their lives. that's a luxury for wealthy, powerful nations, and soon, we won't be at least one of those.
CD, I understand...
... the "systemic" definition of racism, and from you or Xenophon, I'd take it, but that was not what was going on here, at any level, let alone the OFB
level where "you're a racist" was about response #2 in the "Why do you hate Obama?" wars. (Which the Obama campaign, absolutely famed from the brilliance of its online campaign, had to know about.... And did nothing about. For some strange reason.
Imagine no races (and no religions, too)!
Sounds good to me. It's one reason that the growing acceptance of multi-racial families is, to me, such a hopeful sign (and damn, I really wanted to like our first viable multiracial candidate!).
But what of the PC agenda that we're supposed to celebrate our racial differences?
and BINGO was her name-o
"that reason is because americans would rather talk about the latest “controversy of race” rather than the issues that, you know, actually have an impact upon their lives."
Wasting breath (or bandwidth) on the degree of "racism" inherent in any twisted, truncated, deliberately misconstrued Bill Clinton quote, as measured in micro-millimeters, not to mention who is the more guilty accuser, begs the question, "Why are we avoiding a discussion of the issues, policies and problems that affect the quality of life for all demographic groups in American society from the bottom up?"
I want a POTUS who supports Universal Health Care... PERIOD! No equivocation, no compromises.
I want a POTUS who supports Universal Education
... PERIOD! No equivocation, no compromises.
I want a POTUS who supports Equal Pay for Work of Equal Value... PERIOD! No equivocation, no compromises.
I want a POTUS who supports my right to control my body... PERIOD! No equivocation, no compromises.
I want a POTUS who supports Social Security... PERIOD! No equivocation, no compromises.
When we finally have a level STARTING POINT, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, gender preference, age, etc., THEN we can waste time and energy debating who works harder and deserves more.
And by the way, Obama's starting point (by any measure) was way ahead of Bill Clinton's.
Cut the Crap, BIO
Of course Bill Clinton is going to say that he doesn't blame Obama a few weeks before the Democratic Convention. What's he supposed to say? To peddle that as proof positive that he and his wife really do not put any blame on the Obamas is either naive or disengenuous.
But let's look at the historical record that I was able to Google in the short time I have away from RL stuff -
Here's the Obama campaign pushing the deliberate distortion of Hillary's MLK remarks and Hillary herself specifically attributing it to the Obama campaign and not just low level supporters - here:
Pretty clear. Hillary Clinton blames the Obama campaign for misrepresenting her remarks as denigrating MLK (part of the broader racism smear) and the Obama campaign continues to push the smear.
Here's Bill Clinton complaining that "they" played the race card on me. Here's what he said:
Does that sound like he's talking about the media?
Or perhaps it completely went unnoticed by the Big Dog that one of the people lying about his fairytale remarks was Michelle Obama. Here's what she said:
A complete distortion of what Bill Clinton said about Obama's Iraq War record and turning it into a statement that Obama himself was a fairytale, which you may recall was one of the first things, along with the MLK remarks, that pushed the racist meme on the Clintons personally. But, hey, I'm sure Bill Clinton doesn't blame her at all for the things she personally said.
The Clintons know damn well what was done to them. Look at how angry he is at Jim Clyburn in that interview. Now, do you believe or think Bill Clinton believes that Jim Clyburn, Donna Brazile, and Jesse Jackson, Jr., and all those other Obama supporters just happened to go out there and misconstrue things Bill and Hillary Clinton said to make them look racist? That's just the work of some low level staffer? Give me a fucking break.
The Somali Garb Photo
Remember? Right before Mississippi? The comments by one of the presidential candidates? Also, "Hoodwinked"? "Bamboozled"? No insertion of racial tensions at all.
Big pile of crap
and we can cut into it if you please, but it has been hashed through many times and I doubt it will be helpful.
My comments, as you well know, were specifically directed to the citation given by VL. If you want to go over every statement ever made by every staffer and every comment made by any one of the candidates in the heat of the moment and selectively reported by that same MSM/VRWC
responsible for whipping up the frenzy and feeding reports back and forth between the camps to keep it going, well sure. Why not? Line 'em up, one at a time. Pick your strongest one first.
What you have here is an MSM orchestrated and delivered and perpetuated frenzy designed to damage both Democrats, aimed to be useful in dividing the party and progressives, and it is working very well. Bill and Hillary are, for the record, past it all and on reflection have said repeatedly now that they hold no animus towards Obama. Good enough for me; apparently not good enough for you. By all means, keep stirring the shit.
Fail
BIO - where is your proof the MSM wants to divide the Democrats? Where are your specific contextually relevant quotes from major players in the MSM as to their plan?
Your argument is pretty poor, and IMO borderline ridiculous. The main hook, ISTM, are the statements by WJC and HRC that they don't hate BHO with both guns blazing. Of course they are going to say all things are good under the sun. It's beyond idiotic to think this is the definitive take away from this discussion. It would seem much more relevant to me to take known statements from senior people in BHO's camp and put the onus where it is evident.
FWIW - I believe the MSM does want to damage the D brand. But it certainly does no one any good to feed their narrative by clear examples we've seen in this thread.
FWIW - I also believe the BHO camp deliberately pushed the racist smear for all they were worth, let it propagate and used it as a lever to turn 50% - 75% AA turn out to +90% AA turn out.
all i'm asking is to take that weapon out of everyone's hands
let's make "race" and "racism" and "race identity" and all the rest of the stuff that starts with "race" out of the arsenal. let's make it as meaningful as the arguments that people used to kill each other over, like "anabaptist" or "heugonot." or "hatfield" and "mccoy." a thing to shake our heads over, laugh about, and wonder what the heck was wrong with foolish people in the past who couldn't see that sheet, oreo or spade, words and social constructions have no meaning except that which we choose to give them. obviously i think that last word is the operative one.
Seriously?
You think people aren't still killing each other over religious differences? That there are no more personal feuds between families?
No, no one's killing Huguenots now - because there aren't any Huguenots left to kill. Now it's Shi'a/Sunni, Hindu/Muslim, Jewish/Muslim, etc. etc. And as to family feuds - do you remember the case of Mukhtaran Mai, the Pakistani girl publicly raped as part of a dispute between her family and the rapists'?
None of this is something confined to the bad old days, before we got so civilized. This is what people are. You want people to wonder what was wrong with those foolish people who killed over social constructions, I suggest you go into genetic engineering, because nothing short of redoing the Human species is going to fix this little design flaw.
Is this senior enough for you bringiton?
Racial tensions roil Democratic race
By BEN SMITH | 1/11/08 3:04 PM EST Updated: 1/11/08 6:41 PM EST
Comments from the Clintons and Clinton supporters are spurring a racial backlash.
Photo: AP
A series of comments from Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, her husband and her supporters are spurring a racial backlash and adding a divisive edge to the presidential primary as the candidates head south to heavily African-American South Carolina.
The comments, which ranged from the New York senator appearing to diminish the role of Martin Luther King Jr. in the civil rights movement — an aide later said she misspoke — to Bill Clinton dismissing Sen. Barack Obama’s image in the media as a “fairy tale” — generated outrage on black radio, black blogs and cable television. And now they've drawn the attention of prominent African-American politicians.
“A cross-section of voters are alarmed at the tenor of some of these statements,” said Obama spokeswoman Candice Tolliver, who said that Clinton would have to decide whether she owed anyone an apology.
“There’s a groundswell of reaction to these comments — and not just these latest comments but really a pattern, or a series of comments that we’ve heard for several months,” she said. “Folks are beginning to wonder: Is this really an isolated situation, or is there something bigger behind all of this?”
OxyCon
And who can forget the "native garb" smear
where Obama personally pushed the smear that the Clinton campaign had been pushing the photo, when Kevin Drum admitted it was a Limbaugh slander that he fell for. Still waiting for a retraction on that one, but I've looked, and never found one.
CD, that is why I am so cheesed off
about how Obama, his blogger minions and the media accused President Clinton of racism. I remember the 1990s very well. I remember how great I felt about the country because under President Clinton's leadership, this country seemed to be finally becoming colorblind. Of course, I liked alot of things that President Clinton was doing, from economic, fiscal, open government, competency. But the thing that really made me feel great was how we were coming together as one nation, appreciating the contributions that all of us have given to the country.
Then Bush and the Repubs came around and did their best to try and undo all the good works.
Then to add insult to injury, Obama had the audacity to direct his campaign to smear the Clintons as racists. And yes, Obama did it. His fingerprints are all over it.
This is the biggest gripe I have and one I am nowhere even close to letting go of.
We were coming together and Obama deliberately, for his own selfish reasons divided us.
Yes, I'm still cheesed off because for the first time in my 46 years, I have been called a racist by anonymous Obama thugs, but that I will get over.
Obama, on the other hand has to do a hell of alot to get my forgiveness.
OxyCon
Great moments in post-racial politics
http://www.correntewire.com/its_time_for...
"It’s not wise for them to challenge a black Democrat for governor."
link problems, VL
Which takes me to a post by you containing a link “identity politics” associated with that quote, and the link takes me to a very long post from leah that may have something on point but I don't have time right now to read and analyze the whole thing.
What are you trying to say here?
?
You're troubled by a link in the post I linked to?
Don't worry. Obama's great, complaints about him are a huge mistake. Case closed.
Troubled by? not so much, VL
Only asking that you state what ever case you're trying to make plainly. A link to a link to a long post by someone else, without any clear relationship to anything under discussion that I can understand, is what I see. Surely my lack; a vote of those presently here would rank me at best as a half-wit, so consider me to be that limited.
Just say what you have to say, clearly and directly, is my only request.
BIO, I'm tired of playing whack-a-mole with...
... your latest willful denial of the reality of this campaign (for example, pretending that Bill Clinton's graciousness equates to a clean bill of health for Obama on race-baiting), in order to shame us for not getting all excited about Obama's incredible shrinking less-evilness.
And I am annoyed that you're nagging me to explain a link that's a minor point within an old post I linked to, as though that's an important matter now, something you termed a "link problem."
OK, I'll solve the "link problem" for you: Leah had posted a claim that Obama wasn't benefiting from identity politics, something that the post that contained that link fairly blew out of the water, with but one of the rather stark quotes from the linked (another problem, no doubt) L.A Times article about the sullied reputation on race Hillary was to face when returning to her day job.
To find the relevant section within Leah's post would have taken the extraordinary and problematical step of scanning all the way to the second paragraph or searching for the quoted phrase "identity politics."
I agree with VL
This is the sort of "thesis" that's worth a post. Lay it all out for us, quotes and links, instead of this scattershot approach.
Maybe you could start with the post on this topic that you wrote at the time?
Scattershot
Must be an issue of perception. I put up a single comment, what I thought was a straightforward proposition - that the media are, and have been, the principle drivers of the "Clintons are Racists" meme and that the principle recipients of the ensuing conflict are the Republicans. I'll be happy to re-post that as a stand-alone, had no idea what so ever at the time that all the scattershot directed at me was going to occur, much less that it would turn out to be such a challenging hurdle for those being disputatious. What exactly I could have done besides reply to each in turn is quite beyond me, and how that fractiousness would be bettered by restarting the argument is also entirely unclear; but maybe that isn't the message.
I am so very fucking sorry to have not just gotten in line and marched along to the established beat. Alternative ways of thinking, differing points of view, are so damn annoying.
Feh
The classic claim of not marching in lockstep. I've heard it all before.
You've got a thesis. This forum isn't doing justice to it.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Moles aren't very bright
and yeah, that's me; I'm just a willful denier of reality. Or maybe it’s that you don’t like it when it is your reality that’s being denied.
Shame that you feel annoyed at being asked to be clearer; the last link, the one to the LA Times, is more than clear enough so thanks awfully for that. I assumed it was important to you because you wrote about it in the first place. I’ll deal with it in the new post to come.
"your reality"
Double-feh on that one.
Gee, if I didn't know better, VL, I'd say...
... that quote showed an Obama supporter playing the race card, and not from the bottom of the deck, either, but slamming it right down there in the middle of the table.
But apparently it's more complicated than that?
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
David Plouffe Senior Enough?
Obama slams smear photo
By: Mike Allen
February 25, 2008 11:42 AM EST
Obama campaign manager David Plouffe accused the Clinton campaign Monday of "shameful offensive fear-mongering" by circulating a photo as an attempted smear.
...
Plouffe said in a statement: “On the very day that Senator Clinton is giving a speech about restoring respect for America in the world, her campaign has engaged in the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election. This is part of a disturbing pattern that led her county chairs to resign in Iowa, her campaign chairman to resign in New Hampshire, and it’s exactly the kind of divisive politics that turns away Americans of all parties and diminishes respect for America in the world," said Plouffe.
OxyCon
Link, OxyCon
link.
Just to insert the link
Obama campaign manager David Plouffe accused Clinton's campaign of "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23337141/
For what it's worth...
In a perfect world, it'd be great to have all the votes cast as they were earned, but that would not be in the best interest of the Democratic party. - DNC supporter after the 2008 roll call
Barack Obama senior enough for you?
At a rally in Jackson with an audience of 9,000, Obama painted Clinton as part of the past Washington establishment. The nation does not need "the same old folks doing the same old things, talking the same old stuff," he said.
He (Obama)also accused Clinton's campaign of leaking a photograph of him wearing African garb, including a turban, during a visit to Kenya in 2006. That was "straight out of the Republican playbook," Obama said. "That's not real change."
OxyCon
Link again, OxyCon
the links need to be included, to put the quotes in the context from which they are drawn and for continuity of the exchange. Thanks.
Another reason for links, oxycon
Dropping the sarcasm -- and this is not tactical. I've been blogging for about 5 years, thousands of posts, and what happens with quotes from the newspapers is that they disappear -- behind firewalls, or links get changed, or whatever. I can remember quotes -- and you'll have to take me on faith right now, I'm afraid -- on the Iraq war that don't show up in Google as originals, but only the blogs that quote them.
So that means that the blogosphere is also create a historical archive -- and giving the quote plus the link makes for a better archive.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Yeah, we're stirring the shit
But Obama's campaign shit it.
x
I would like to hear every one of the frauds who called Bill Clinton a racist tell me how many black children's lives in Africa they have saved. I suspect they won't have a lot to say.
Link? Seriously? In this day and age of "the Google?
I used to get that "Link" crap way back in the day when I had just finished cleaning some Repub's clock.
Thanks for bringing back the memories.
Here's what I used to do then.
I used to say something like "copy and paste" the follwing:
"He also accused Clinton’s campaign of leaking a photograph of him wearing African garb, including a turban, during a visit to Kenya in 2006. That was “straight out of the Republican playbook,” Obama said. “That’s not real change.”"
Then paste it into Google and click "search".
Seriously, why do you need a link? Are you saying you really do not know how to use a search engine? I'm not trying to be a prick either. You asked for proof. I wasted some of my time and gave you plenty of proof...proof that most people could have dug up in a short period of time.
I stopped posting links awhile ago when I figured that if I was posting whole segments of articles, everyone who is blogging and posting comments knows how to find the source with ease.
OxyCon
Maybe you should go back to cleaning Republican clocks, then
Good clean fun! And easy, because they're so fucking stupid.
Things are different, here.
You make the argument, you supply the proof. Don't make other people do your work for you.
"Just Google it," for pity's sake. Gee, which is more authoritative? The first or the second hit?
NOTE Also, Oxycon, your rejoinder to bringiton was readily at hand: All you had to say was lambert already included the link upthread -- helpfully titled And Who Can Forget The "Native Garb" Smear. Now, bringiton ignored it -- tactically, or not, I can't say.
What's your excuse? Not only do we have to do your searches for you, we've got to read the threads, too? Can I bill for this?
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
After what's gone on in this election
I don't think Democrats can plausibly claim that we're collectively any smarter or wiser than the GOP.
Just when you think things can't possibly get any stupider, "A" list bloggers declare that "presumptuous" really means "uppity."
------------------------------------------------
“But hysteria is all the rage these days, I guess” - gqm
x
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“I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat.” - Will Rogers
You put up the quote, you source it
The requirement is on you to support quotes or factual information you advance in support of your cause. That's just basic decency and common sense, not to mention a standard requirement with any format for argumentation.
How ever many times you do the wrong thing, you're likely to get called on it; that you have a history of the same incorrect behav