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Christianist Oral Roberts U. engulfed in scandal, with hundreds of texts from Roberts "first lady" to underage males

oral_roberts [Welcome, TPM readers. Welcome, Laodicea readers.] As we keep saying, authoritarian systems are extremely vulnerable to fraud, because authoritarian followers aren't capable of providing checks and balances for their leaders, and the leaders are always tempted by the usual suspects: Money, power, and sex. Latest example: Oral Roberts [cough] "University," which is about as much a university as Monica Goodling's Regent "University," or bad pizza billionaire and uber-Catholic loon Tom Monahan's Ave Maria. I'll skip right to the juiciest details:

An ORU student repairing [the laptop of Stephanie Cantese, Richard Roberts' sister-in-law] discovered the document and later provided a copy to one of the professors.

It details dozens of alleged instances of misconduct. Among them:

  • A longtime maintenance employee was fired so that an underage male friend of Mrs. Roberts could have his position.
  • Mrs. Roberts — who is a member of the board of regents and is referred to as ORU's "first lady" on the university's [sic] Web site — frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to "underage males who had been provided phones at university expense."

Sounds like she's been taking lessons from Mark Foley (R-Neverland), although, granted, Foley ("Don't forget to measure for me") used IM, not text. Honestly, what is it about Christianist authority figures and child abuse? It's like being a sex predator is part of the job description, or something; at this point, these guys have a track record, and there's example after example after example.

More of the sadly familiar, yet still lurid, details:

  • The university jet was used to take one daughter and several friends on a senior trip to Orlando, Fla., and the Bahamas. The $29,411 trip was billed to the ministry as an "evangelistic function of the president."

Yeah? So what's your point?

  • Mrs. Roberts spent more than $39,000 at one Chico's clothing store alone in less than a year, and had other accounts in Texas and California. She also repeatedly said, "As long as I wear it once on TV, we can charge it off." (Matthew 6:5) The document cites inconsistencies in clothing purchases and actual usage on TV.

Tell me again why we don't tax these guys, just like we tax the rest of the entertainment industry?

  • University and ministry employees are regularly summoned to the Roberts' home to do the daughters' homework.

Home work is for little people!

And, oh yeah, there's the use of church money in poltical campaigns. What a surprise.

Richard Roberts, according to the suit, asked a professor in 2005 to use his students and university resources to aid a county commissioner's bid for Tulsa mayor. Such involvement would violate state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. Up to 50 students are alleged to have worked on the campaign.

Pam's House Blend has a copy of the memo ("Attention All Campaigners"). Yeah, I'll be waiting for the [cough] Justice Department to bring suit on this one, despite Roberts being caught red-handed with documentary evidence. Maybe some Democrat will take their courage in both hands and ask Mukasey about it at the coronation confirmation hearings.

NOTE Now, to be fairMR SUBLIMINAL Why? They're not fair to you! the document on Cantese's computer was from an internal investigation by the Oral Roberts board sparked by whistleblowing professors, who were fired, of course. But apparently, the campaign work was the last straw. The rest of the abuse had been going on for years. I'll give one of the whistleblowers the last word:

Tim Brooker, one of the professors who sued, said he fears for the university's survival if certain changes aren't made.

"All over that campus, there are signs up that say, `And God said, build me a university, build it on my authority, and build it on the Holy Spirit,'" Brooker said. "Unfortunately, ownership has shifted."

As it always does. That's the nature of the Christianist Project. Building institutions in the public square is, exactly, laying up treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19). Which is every Christianist's right, bless their heart. But they shouldn't try to kid themselves, or deceive us, that their enterprise is anything more than an power grab to impose their set of tribal so-called "values" on the rest of us. Their enterprise has nothing to do with religion. By definition, it can't. Which is why Jesus warned against the Pharisees, of whom the Roberts family is but the latest incarnation.

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Woody--Tokin Librul's picture
Submitted by Woody--Tokin Librul on

Yew cin teck the buoy outta the tryller-pork, but yew caint teck the tryler-pork outta the buoy...

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Oral Roberts went to South Africa some time in the 50s or 60s, and left in a hurry when caught dealing in uncut diamonds - a felony drawing very long sentences there. It was hushed up to some extent, but South Africans remained skeptical of US 'evangelists' for a long time after that. Not that they needed them - they have their own home-grown hucksters, like any 'Christian' country.

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Do you have any links or info on this claim? I am quite interested in reading more about that.

While I'm no fan or booster of ORU (as it is nearly universally called, possibly so people can avoid saying "Oral Roberts"), it is a university, accredited by one of the official US Department of Education accreditation bodies (and not because of some GOP sinecure). There is a gay community there, though under persecution, and plenty of non-wingnut kids who go there because it's within their reach. (Plenty of wingnut kids, too, to be sure [it is the hometown of James Inhofe], but they're 30% of the US population so you do find them everywhere.)

Despite university mismanagement and now allegations of fraud, it's allegations of academic incompetence that should get attention, and there aren't many of those yet. There are plenty of God-fearing blue-state families who worked hard to send their kids to college, and chose ORU for reasons that include geography and accessibility. If they learn nursing or accounting or a teaching certificate and learn it right, it would be horrid to imply those degrees were worthless because the administrators are crooks.

Harvard wasn't called "Harvard University [sic]" just because its president has strange ideas about women's capabilities. This is why we have accreditation, and it would be nice if people were careful not to imply that all the professors and students were ignorami if the administration turns out to have abused its power.

Not that ORU is Harvard, or anything, but unlike something like (say) Ave Maria University or Regent University, most ORU students seem to go there to learn their chosen field with a religious background, not to learn to be an authoritarian dominionist who merely pretends to be a lawyer (or whatever else) to accomplish wingnut missions.

Proximity may bias me, though; just food for thought.

Submitted by Ex-ORU'er (not verified) on

Matt's right. There are more or less normal people there more or less getting a good education, as with most schools. I went there for 2 years, though had the sense to get out. Had a sibling graduate. Both of my parents--very intelligent AND liberal people--taught there. Had some fantastic professors (and some hacks). So, it's not as simple as a bunch of rednecks running around. In fact, my fellow students were highly motivated and hard working---they just happened to also run to the creepy, hard-core, Democrats-are-Communists end of things. I had more respect for the old man but none for the son, so this is not surprising. What's a damn shame, as the case by the 3 professors attests to, is the degradation of lots of good effort by the faculty and students. They would be better off elsewhere.

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

ORU is not a place to satisfy man, but God.
Therefore we don't give a rat's ass what YOU think.

The gays are a nuisance.
Homosexuality is a pervesion and a fetish.
If any man (or woman) be in Christ he or she is a new creation. Why hang onto something the God has told you He DESPISES in the book of Romans. Why would you want to be around people ho hate homosexuality with a passion?
When my toddler plays in the toilet I tell him to STOP IT!
If Gays choose to keep their life style, it would seem more sensible to be somewhere that agrees spiritually with it.
Gay people should have all the rights and privileges as all other tax people but nobody is going to make me believe its rights when God says it is sin.
When I was in the world, I learn to NEVER EVER NEVER say what I was doing was RIGHT when it was wrong. It wasn't. Don't decieve yourself by calling wrong 'right'.
If you want to please God you will have to give up sin, Like the Roberts will have to get serious and give up their lavish life style, but they are kings kids and the king will deal with them and not internet sladerers.

Want more?
Anonymous coward

Submitted by Bruce (not verified) on

The fact that the founder of this university claimed that "God" would kill him if donors did not pony 8 million tells you what you need to know about this institution. If it doesn't, you are not only a fool but a damned fool.

Also, I am not sure that the tax point about "wear it once" is correct at all. In general, clothing that is useful for general purpose business, casual or social wear in North America is not a bona fide business expense if your job is "university president's family." Maybe a professional fashion model or agency can deduct such clothing since it relates to the core mission of the enterprise, but an attorney cannot deduct her or his business suits, nor can a law firm take a deduction for buying such clothing for an associate unless the value of the clothing is imputed to salary for that employee for both income and FICA taxation. Distinguished from "uniforms" and protective gear, or clothing that is worksite-specific, i.e. "Earl" the plumber, nurses, cops, EMT, fast-food workers, etc. or their employers can deduct job-site specific gear because it's not truly useful for general purpose business or other wear.

While ORU is presumably non-profit (for now....), the clotheshorse inventory for Mrs. Roberts would seem to have to be imputed as income to her or her husband, especially if she keeps the clothes (i.e. takes "ownership".) This is not my primary area of practice so I would welcome corrections from practitoners who may follow regulatory developments in this area more closely.

Submitted by Mabel's Wig Shack (not verified) on

hey where did Oral Roberts University get the sculpture of Saddam Hussein's hands clasped in meditative benevolent dictatorship?

Submitted by xan (not verified) on

not long ago. He had to buy a particular shade of blue shirt to wear on camera. He tried to take the expense off his taxes under just the situation you describe: it was required by his employer as a condition of employment, AND, he maintained, it was a color he particularly detested and never wore in his off-hours, therefore he would never have purchased these shirts without this requirement.

Tax court judge ruled against him. The matter of his personal taste in shirt colors notwithstanding, there was nothing unique (as you said, the "Earl's Plumbing" embroidery etc) which kept the shirts from being used off-the-job. Deduction denied.

Sorry i can't cite a case number and all that; I am not a lawyer of any sort and just ran across this story as a funny a few years ago.

But from the ORU story as written it sounds to me like Mrs. Roberts is well and truly screwed, legally speaking as I do not want to trouble my beautiful mind with thoughts of anything else related to that word, on the matter of writing off her clothing expenses. I roll my eyes in her general direction at the very thought in fact. Damn but one of the most annoying things about These People is their constant attitude of entitlement....

(whew, I got through a whole post about Oral Roberts without ever once slipping up and mentioning his other brothers Anal and Phallic! I am always so ashamed of myself when I do this. Praise FSM...)

Ruth's picture
Submitted by Ruth on

who allow themselves to be used by of every charlatan who claims god's direct command deserve to be disappointed in their leaders. Just like everyone who took Cretin-1's word for his state of grace, anyone who takes a degree from Oral Roberts' U should be ashamed. Matt, your sympathy is nice, but fraud was committed from the beginning to set up this school. While it may be accredited, its name is a joke. The profs and students at SMU have begun again to risk their own standing on that campus to keep from being associated with war criminals. The profs and students at Oral U. can have that kind of courage too.

Ruth

Ruth

Submitted by James, San Francisco (not verified) on

These people have such outrageously strict, excluding, and regressive behavioral codes that it is no wonder we are seeing so many "falls from grace" like the one at Oral Roberts University. The bottom line for me is, if they are breaking the law, they should be brought to justice. Similarly, when did such extravagance become so accepted, as Christianity's founder said to give away your possessions to the poor and not be a part of the 'world'?

This religion has lost its way, starting in the 60s and accelerating in the 70s, when they became fully enmeshed in the 'world', involving themselves directly with right wing politics, and abandoning their religious principles. As such, as the right wing falls, we are now seeing a few things: 1) highly visible and high level failures throughout Christianity, 2) an abandoning of the strict and backward moral codes by the younger generation (they are actually significantly more supportive of gay rights than their parents and are more pro-choice, too), 3) right wing Christians are finding it hard to make new converts or to rally their troops by he usual tacti s of demonizing gay people or those who believe in the right to reproductive choice, 4) numerous parallels between fundamentalist-evangelical Christianity and fundie Judaism and Islam continue to be highlighted in the public's eye, and 5) an overall loss of integrity for the Christian religion because of the meanness and un-Christlike behaviors of its leaders and its followers. Christianity's main message is to "love one another" (John 13:34): the primary identity of this religion is now intolerance, exclusion, and downright meanness. Many people find the message of inclusive and unconditional love empowering and enlightening, however, the Christian church has left this beautiful teaching behind, in its rush toward power and wealth.

Submitted by Stephen (not verified) on

Let me guess James - you're gay? Damn mean ol' Christians just want in your bedroom, don't they?

Submitted by xan (not verified) on

Anonymous Coward at 17:35, it looks like Anonymous Coward at 14:45 may have his televangelists confused. He may be talking about another case, in which event I hope he returns to provide the documentation you request. But a quick Google turns up the name Pat Robertson in connection with duplicitous African diamond dealings rather than O. Roberts.

Hard to keep the crooks straight, I know. :)

Submitted by lambert on

Is that a reference to Haggard 6:9? [rimshot, laughter]

But Xan, I think you're right. Maybe Mullah Dobson could devote some of his millions to producing a handy chart, just so we could be sure which Christianist leaders have so far avoided indictment or defenestration?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by Redeemed (not verified) on

You hell bound atheist! I hope you got your asbestos drawers ready! I am not one of those namby pamby Christians. I am one that will kick your ass!
Christians aren't perfect...they are forgiven, fool!
The kings kids are sometimes spoiled brats, but they have the bloodline. Do you?
You hate God, don't you? Thats really your problem.

Submitted by Dr. Wu (not verified) on

“As long as I wear it once on TV, we can charge it off.” (Matthew 6:5)

Classic!

Submitted by Quantum Disruptor (not verified) on

Where ever you will find a wealthy mafia king pin, a successful TV evangelist or President of a country or a billion dollar enterprise, you will find a zionist-jewish advisor standing next to them.

Submitted by Elliot Lake (not verified) on

religion--think of the sumptuary laws in (middle ages I think), the amassing of fortunes by Pharoahs claiming descent from the sun,etc.

And please spare us the stoopid anti semitic ranting, qd. Christianists are perfectly able to be human, greedy and arrogant all by their lonesomes. Rome and the Vatican City aren't full of museums because the Popes were all fabulous painters and sculptors.

It's us groundlings/common folk who slip up and worship the human leaders that aid and abet this kind of behavior. If authoritarians had no followers, they'd have far less power and money to abuse.

Submitted by Thomas D. Hall (not verified) on

It seems to me that every year that goes by the U.S. Government and the media target an evangelist to take another stab at Christianity. A favorite pastime of the Goverment and our wonderful non-biased media outlets is to crucify another Christian every year. Last year it was Ted Haggard and now its Richard Roberts turn to fry in the barbeque of the media.

Dont get me wrong, If they are guilty of doing this they should be punished. Oh well, I guess if your a Christian in America your assumed guilty before it's proven and you get no fair trial.

I guess it's time to break out the burning stakes and hunt some Christians down!

Submitted by cdtimmer (not verified) on

It's you're, NOT your

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I do not believe it is accurate to call these people Christians. Their sins being brought out in the news today is nothing compared to the going on's of the past thirty years or more. Do a little research and send your donations to true followers of God's word like a local small Church whose Pastor works for reasons other than riches on Earth.

Submitted by Robert C Frost Jr (not verified) on

This is just another example of what greed can do to you. Granted these are just accusations, but with so many implied improprieties in the wind (now as in the past)I think the press is right on track. Nobody is above the law, they just think they are.

Submitted by lambert on

Offhand, the only preacher I can remember going down this year is Ted Haggard [rimshot. laughter]

Of course, if you're one of the many children abused by Christianist pastors you've got my sympathy.

If not/anyhow: We're talking about the Roberts abusing their authority, for which the news story, and the accompanying lawsuit, provides a strong prima facie case. Nothing to do with religion at all. It has to do with their behavior in the very public square you guys keep saying you want to be in.

Or were you one of the underage males who got text messages from Mrs. Robinson at 2:00AM, and so you feel a personal connection?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by Joe Link (not verified) on

I guess if your an American Sunday Christian, it's best to assume all Muslims are going to hell and save God the time and invade and kill their children and hand their oil to Jesus loving oil and sniper mercenary companies. Oil slick, Blackwater..whatever they go by, if love of the Lord Jesus in America means keeping quiet and turning the other cheek to mass murder, gee who wouldn't want to be part of that!!

So when the anti-christ is probably knocking on your ego ridden American back door, the governments and perverted politicians and false prophets for profit that are contaminating the flocks, will hide in their bunkers and wait. And then, they will pray for the mountains to crush them and hide them from the face of God.. that day of wrath is surly coming. "Oh,well?"

No body is judge but God in Heaven. Nobody. Got that! But, if prophecy means changing the direction from evil, America can forget it. It's taking satans hand and jumping in head first. I see nothing in America's immediate future to prove me wrong.

How America , the great whore will fall and all those who partook in her delights and smut and drank from her blood filled military /drug filled golden cup. Will they in their lack of testing the spirits ,suffer Gods wrath? And the whore will fall with the tears of those who embraced her. The Great Whore of babylon has fallen.

Submitted by Mother in Tulsa, OK (not verified) on

Isn't it possible that one of the daughters was text messaging the "underage males," not the mother? My son uses a cell phone that is registered in my name. Should I be accused of calling "underage girls" in the middle night just because he does. Besides, most women in their fifties are not awake from 1-3 am, let alone running after pimply faced boys. Come on, folks! Let's be realistic even if we aren't willing to be fair!

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

"Honestly, what is it about Christianist authority figures and child abuse?"

It may be that some people who have pedophile urges sublimate them into what they believe to be "pro-child," "pro-family" attitudes.

They are obsessed with children, and this is their way of dealing with it, of washing it clean (in the blood of the Lamb...). Of course, it never really takes, and some will break down and molest children.

Of course, others may be less self-deluded; they may simply realize that the job of minister or priest is a pedophile's dream job: get to be alone with kids, having gained the total trust of their parents.

Either way, it's awfully creepy.

Submitted by Nancy Irving (not verified) on

Sorry, that was me, didn't put my name in.

..chastisement.

I think that is what the Quran says will happen to these individuals in this life and in the next?

Hell.

Oh well!

Submitted by lambert on

This amount of calls:

$800 per month, with hundreds of text messages

Seems like a lot for the scenario you propose.

And why would she give--or, rather, have ORU pay for--a cell for herself, only to let the daughters use it? If the Roberts family is having the university pay $29,411 for a trip for the daughters, why balk at a cellphone?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by IndyAnna (not verified) on

The "investigation" by the school's board of directors will be bogus, at best. It is led by member John Hagee. John Hagee is the evanglist who publicly and continuously proclaimed Hurrican Katrina was God's way of punishing New Orleans for holding a gay rights parade. This man has admitted (on NPR's Fresh Air) to writing instructions to the leaders of Israel on how to destroy Palestine. He uses Old Testament verses as suggestions. He has proclaimed the United States as being in a "war against Christianity".
Don't expect objective and honest conclusions about this scandal from Hagee or the board.

Submitted by lambert on

Greenwald.

Then there's the whole Katrina is a punishment from God thing. 'Cause Gawd hates fags, and all that.

Tell me again how OR"U" is an extremely mainstream and legitimate university? I forgot why.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by Tired of the Noise (not verified) on

Most televangelists get around the clothing thing by having the church or organization buy the clothes and keep them as inventory. Some evangelists have taken advantage of this by preaching vow of poverty, claiming to own nothing, as even the shirt on their back is owned by someone else.

A scam by any other name is still a scam!!

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Put it this way. It seems like it would have come out much earlier if Mrs. Roberts was texting underage males at a rate of $800/month, because regardless of her predilections, there just are't many underage males interested in middle-aged mothers, Christian or no. The texting would have been instantly broadcast by one of them.

I think it was almost certainly one of the daughters texting.

Submitted by lambert on

I see the argument that "it would have come out before now."

Why give a cell to the daughters, though? When you're spending $29,000 on a vacation right out front, why launder a cell phone bill for the daughters through the Mom?

And as far as "it would have come out by now," maybe. Depends on how tight the community was, how willing the students would be to confront an authority figure, and so on.

I should also say that ORU is by no means the worst university in the world. However, with regents as above, and what the second generation of Roberts is doing to it, it's only a matter of time. See comment on original post on treasures.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous (not verified) on

You label your site anti-torture, not true, if it were the case you would need to quit blogging.
Apparently you have a game of hide the Jew going on. "Come on Proles, its the Middle class Christians who are responsible for your plight kill'em kill'em!" Prestidigitators. Lou Pearleman, who's he. He's the Billionaire Record Producer who likes to fellate young boys. Abra Kadabra, he's gone. Roman Polanski, you said that 13 year old girl seduced you and manipulated you into sodomizing her to the point of rupture. Just step in the wardrobe stage right. Alakazam! Pedophile no more. Award winning Director emerge. Folsom Street Fair exposing toddlers to Sado-Masochistic Gay Sex. Just a tap of the fairy wand and presto, never happened.
Here's to the wake that will inevitably drown you rats leaving the sinking ship and indoctrinated "christianists" behind.

Submitted by Scott (not verified) on

I am not a proponent of Doing Wrong, yet It is equally wrong to slander, even in alledged situations. God is truly the only conclusive Judge in all things. I do agree that when wrong is exclusively uncovered justice should be served. In all fairness being judgmental, even critically so, is not a formidible righteous act anymore than those who are determinently guilty of those alledged criminal acts. I am not defending the virtue of those who have accosted the good will of others or their resources. I am however interested in the Lord's Law that reminds all men/women that you will reap what you sew. This law applies to all people.

If all people were caught in every single instance of unspeakable wrongs and held at the capital pinnacle of an "eye for an eye" there could be no grace, nor any forgiveness of wrongs done however catastrophic the appearances of it are.

There is only one true Judge "Jesus the Christ." While governmentally the chosen judges of our land preside as an honorable office, their election is still permitted by the authority of God himself.

I write all this to emplore a reasonable consideration to abolish clamorous expressions and to incite a prayerful approach to invite God to have His Omnipotent way in the ORU - Roberts mess.

Woody--Tokin Librul's picture
Submitted by Woody--Tokin Librul on

Bolshevik Mentality
Appeal to Thinking Outside the Box

just axin'...
A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Submitted by lambert on

Absent truly obvious markers (most of which are caught by the system anyhow), trollishness is established by a pattern of behavior, rather than by foolishness.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Sarah's picture
Submitted by Sarah on

I miss that reasoned discourse!

We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Submitted by Current Student (not verified) on

I am a current ORU student and I must say that this scandal is not surprising. I go to an ORU grad program and find it to be a very legitimate school with good professors. However, I do believe the theology to be very misguided and for that reason I am looking into finishing my degree elsewhere. I have gone to ORU for a while because it is convenient with good professors, but if I were a German living in the Nazi era I wouldn't work for Adolf Hitler just because it were convenient. I got out of the Army because I didn't agree with working for George W. Bush, and I will most likely leave ORU because I don't believe in paying into the pockets of a scamming televangelist either. Vaya con Dios!

Ruth's picture
Submitted by Ruth on

Tho I'm surprised to hear you think the profs are so great. At SMU, faced with the Liebury being deposited there defacing the reputation of all, profs are trying to oust it or get out.

You're not far from U TX, a top rated school. Good luck.

Ruth

Ruth

Woody--Tokin Librul's picture
Submitted by Woody--Tokin Librul on

what program are you pursuing your grad degree in?

oru's in Tulsa, or near it, innit? University of Tulsa's got a decent rep...OSU at stillwater's not that far away, and that's a comprehensive Univ. not that far from Norman, either.

the size of the university might be an intimidating factor for an undergrad experience, but it's a huge advantage on the grad school level. it means more and better profs, with more diverse interests (and better chances to find advisors with whom you actually have something in common) and better (Library/Connectivity/travel) resources. The biggest class I ever was in as a student was statistics, which was required throughout the college, and so all the grad students hadda take it. maybe 20-30 students, max. (Literally, I passed by writing doggerel using statistical vocabulary. True story.)
...i'd be interested in why you went to oru in the first place? got a scholarship/assistanship? a mentor?
...anyway, good luck.
Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

katrin's picture
Submitted by katrin on

During the four years I worked on the ORU campus back in the late 1990s and Early 2000s I heard from reliable sources that ORU's current Finance and Operations VP, who back in 1997 was the head boss at the ORU Mabee Center Business office, periodically missused revenue earned by the University's Mabee Center Ticket Office. One of the most well known missuses in the office at that time was when he stole funds and gave them to a 20 year old female relative of his. The funds were given to her so she could obtain breast enlargment surgery for herself. This young relative had also dated Richard Robert's personal pilot, who was at least 20 years older than she at the time they dated each other. Back then the current university financial comptroller, who has been fired only recently after ORU's latest scandel broke this week, worked in the Mabee Center as the boss of the the Mabee Center financial office.

For the funds that the Mabee Center's business office boss stole for the young relative's breast enlargement surgery to be undetectable in the audits; the Mabee Center financial office boss had to also have been involved in the theft.

patience

katrin's picture
Submitted by katrin on

During the four years I worked on the ORU campus back in the late 1990s and Early 2000s I heard from reliable sources that ORU's current Finance and Operations VP, who back in 1997 was the head boss at the ORU Mabee Center Business office, periodically missused revenue earned by the University's Mabee Center Ticket Office. One of the most well known missuses in the office at that time was when he stole funds and gave them to a 20 year old female relative of his. The funds were given to her so she could obtain breast enlargment surgery for herself. This young relative had also dated Richard Robert's personal pilot, who was at least 20 years older than she at the time they dated each other. Back then the current university financial comptroller, who has been fired only recently after ORU's latest scandel broke this week, worked in the Mabee Center as the boss of the the Mabee Center financial office.

For the funds that the Mabee Center's business office boss stole for the young relative's breast enlargement surgery to be undetectable in the audits; the Mabee Center financial office boss had to also have been involved in the theft.

patience

katrin's picture
Submitted by katrin on

Did you know that when I worked there student employees, numerous times, commented with staff and among themselves about the high number of gay students who at that time had been allowed to be admitted to ORU, and who were permitted to live in the dorms on campus.

patience

patience

Submitted by Aloha Artie (not verified) on

ALOHA this is soooo wild and interesting. Here at our church in Honolulu where the Roberts visit from time to time and are good friends of the Sepulveda's www.wordoflifehawaii.com our annointed pastors also live the lavish lifestyle: multi-million dollar waterfront compound, drive hummers, range rovers, 7 series BMW and of course jet set 1st class around the world sharing the love of Jesus at the expense of thousands of suckers here on the island.

Not to mention the scandal a few years ago with their "supernatural" Word of Life Academy that proclaims their students are 2-3 yrs ahead of the public schools of Hawaii. Recently "annointed pastor" Ashley Sepulveda 21 year old who rocked the school and church with her pregnancy and drug distribution among the students. Amazing it was all ok when Pastor Art Sepulveda announced to the church that fellow senior student and praise and worship leader Josh was the father of the "annointed" child....it seemed to have made it all ok for the church...forgiveness was overwhelming until.... the unexpected happened. Josh announced publicly that he was gay! OOPs maybe he wasn't the father. After several dna test it was found out that Josh was not the father after all...OOPs!

Several years later and many many court dates paternity has been established and quietly Pastor Ashley has continued her life of debauchery and whoredom all financed by the church. Not to mention it is she that drove the Hummer, had the $6000 boob job and recently was seen at a local bar in Waikiki being baptized with alcohol Hawaiian Style! Praise the Lord! Then back to church on Sunday of on the platform on Friday Nights EMERGE YOUTH SERVICE shaking her bootie for Jesus scantily dressed on the platform. All in the name of the Lord!!!

The same school and ministry has seen the turnstyle annointing with people fired and "released for increase" for not aligning their hearts with the "vision of the father" could it be daddy Art Sepulveda? or mamma Kuna? It can't be coincidental that lavish lifestyles such as the Robert's who so happen to be friends of the Sepulveda's is not the same or parallel.

Does anyone know about this church? They are also connected to our heavenly Godfather Cesar Castellanos from Bogota, Columbia and have implemented the G12 Cult movement at Word of Life Hawaii

Help! Stranded on an island!

Submitted by Peacemaker (not verified) on

Let it go Aloha Artie,
Your love can cover a multitude. It sounds like you were once a WOLCC attendee or staff. My heart goes out to you. Wow it must be tuff to deal with. The real issue is "you" and your heart. Every church is imperfect and will have imperfect people and sinners and what not. No matter were you go, life is not fair. Let it go move on so God can bless you again.

Submitted by fellow white ha... (not verified) on

I knew there was a reason God never led me to WOL Honolulu. Now I know why. I only wish God would also cleanse Hawaii of the hate-white people spirit that dwells there. I have been through so much hate from dark-skinned people there I have learned to stay around fellow whites for safety reasons. Sad, sad, sad. And how in the world can they allow someone in leadership who is not living a godly life? Crazy.

Submitted by Jen- former ORU... (not verified) on

I am not surprised by this situation at all. I think the majority of the allegations regarding the Roberts are true. I've met both Richard and Lindsay Roberts and found them to be incredibly fake, holier-than-thou people who think they should be untouchable.

The university makes a practice of regularly lying/covering up for their benefit. There were always rumors going around about the Roberts while I was there, specifically about Lindsay Roberts who proceeded to 'hunt down' the person who posted her personal opinion of Lindsay R. online. The poor girl was in my class, a class that Lindsay was teaching when she called the girl out and called her a b*tch to her face and said God would never have mercy on her.

If you suspect a bitter tinge to this story, I was lured to the university with almost a full scholarship for art and was lied to by staff about how 'up-to-date' their technology was, how great the professors were, etc. Come to find out, their graphic design lab had 3-4 yr old computers, their classrooms were in the 'dungeon' of the school in musty, leak-ridden rooms, and the head of the art department at the time was a total joke. His greatest claim to fame was being the art director for "Hee Haw", (which he particularly liked to tout.)

Now I am a Christian. A dedicated one at that, and I witnessed some of the most deporable actions committed by so-called Christians (the Roberts, Professors, Students) that I have ever witnessed while in my time there at ORU. 2002-2003... btw. I will say this...

Swails (one of the professors involved in the suit) was a wonderful professor who was one of the good guys there. I didn't know the Brookers, but Prof. Swails was well-liked by students, always honest, and rightfully critical of some of the practices by the school.

Woody--Tokin Librul's picture
Submitted by Woody--Tokin Librul on

cuz afterall, whaddathey gotta complain about? they got a free ride to USer citizenship, dinney?
Oh, sure, we overthrew their "king" and "queen,"--she was FAT!--and stole their islands, and murdered their people, and tried to destroy their culture.
Big whoo!
Whakina culture was it? They have only two directions in their language...they wore feathers and fought with palm sticks and sharp stones...
they're much better off with US white folks in charge! they got cars and dvd players, and all they gotta do is lie around all day and surf and eat and smoke week and have babies they cant afford...
chuy, that's the life...

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Submitted by Disgusted by it all (not verified) on

I have read throuh all of the comments and I must admit that the are cruel. Initially, I thought I felt the same way but after reading these comments I am ashamed of myself and of you all. I don't want to be in company with people like you all. Yes, I have issue with ORU but I am not going to lower myself to such low levels because I choose to go there, or because I don't agree with the adminstration. That is the beauty of choice and free will. I graduated from ORU with a M.Div. (That's a Master of Divinity for those of you who only read smut magazines) I must say that I was taught by some world renowned and world class professors. Professors who are well published and well sought after in many areas. If it were not for my professors my time there would have been in vain. Thank GOD for them.

I was not a brain washed automaton as a student and I still am not. I truly take offense to the ignorant comments many of you have made about the faculty, staff and students. There are some things about the UNIVERSITY that are wrong I admit but to slam everything and everybody associated witht the UNIVERSITY is just ignorant and it support the "Christianist" view of you.

Submitted by Scott (not verified) on

God is working out all the details regardlees of how opinionated others are. I thank you for your compassion and words of disciplined truth. I too graduated from ORU with a Pastoral Care Degree. I received a very fine education and the evangelism program humbled me in many ways. I am grateful to God's goodness to permit me to receive a valuable and challenging education.

This is what is so STINKING funny, ...we can watch horror movies, go to bars, pubs, strip clubs, listen to music that degrades a woman's body, curse, slander, gossip, outspend our living expenses, rely on Mom and Dad to cover our desire to live sumptuously, break the speed limit, lust after the opposite sex, look at perversion on the internet, steal, gamble, lie and many other things. We still may ask God to bless us, keep us, bless our meals, pray for someone once in a while, and to top it off attend church ourselves and justify our very existence.

Have you ever barrowed a book and never returned it? Have you ever taken a pencil or pen that was not yours? Have you ever called in sick and you really were not sick? Have you ever agreed to do something and forgot that you even said it in the first place? Have you ever been late for a date, work, appointment? Have you ever spent more than you should have?

"Loose lips... sink ships." "A foolish man utters all his mind, but a wise man holds it in till afterwards." These are a couple of principles I take with me. If I am honest about the above statements I am just as guilty as the next guy/gal for being wrong. The only difference is the variable in the dollar amount.

Love covers a multitude of sins, but the fool harbors evil against his neighbor.

Scott

Submitted by lambert on

Je repete a portion of the original post which most of the ORU advocates on this thread seem unwilling to confront or even address:

Building institutions in the public square is, exactly, laying up treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19). Which is every Christianist’s right, bless their heart. But they shouldn’t try to kid themselves, or deceive us, that their enterprise is anything more than an power grab to impose their set of tribal so-called “values” on the rest of us. Their enterprise has nothing to do with religion. By definition, it can’t. Which is why Jesus warned against the Pharisees, of whom the Roberts family is but the latest incarnation.

So, I couldn't agree with the poster more.

And once the Christianist political machine that's taken over the Republican party stops trying to work evil, I'll believe they're not fools.

Meanwhile, I suggest that the Christianists, instead of prating about being denied the public square in which they are all too visible, look to their own house and clean up their act.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by grace (not verified) on

This is shocking as I read this. First they should't have let a 21 year old be a Pastor they aren't seasoned or ready for it. Paul talks about the leaders that should be older and seasoned. Also this word of faith message is not truth. 1Timothy 6: 3-10. (and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that Godliness is a means to financial gain. We are to withdrawal ourselves from these people. This church should be shut down, and leaders in the community should call these people involved to accountability and repentance. It appears that this lady can do as she pleases including sin and still preach. This is appalling. The Word of God says they have corrupt minds and from such withdraw thyself, verse 5. Get away from them. I get very wary from people who tell you to get over it and that there is no perfect church. Believe the Word of God and do what it says get away from them, and pray that they will come to a spirit of repentance.

Submitted by grace (not verified) on

Yes Love does cover a multitude of sins, according to the Word, but that doesn't mean they should stay in their sins. God calls everyone to repentance that means turn from sin, and don't do it anymore. That doesn't mean turning your face from leaders who are sinning, and let them continue in their sins without calling them to accountability. It is called tough Love, as we disciplined our children when they were young, to teach them that there are consequences for wrong doing, so shall leaders should be dealt with. If they are genuine in their repentance then you shall see it and know it. Ecclesiastes 8:11 When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried our, the hearts of the poeple are filled with schemes to do wrong. It is important to bring truth out and deal with it.

He's guilty. I like to supplement my Sunday with a couple of the TV evangelist's sermons. Sometimes I hit on Oral's site w/o knowing it or rather w/o doing so on purpose.

90% of those times that I pass through his TV Church Service he's asking for a "love offering".

Majority of the scammer evangelists are always asking for money to fund their "activities".

Submitted by Carlos (not verified) on

You guy's would not know the truth if it bit you in the @#$. First off if any of you were in the roberts shoes, and most of you guys secretly wish you were in the position these people are in only without the scandal. You are all haters be honest if you were in their place you would not be corrupt. You would be absolutely corrupt face it guys you are all jealeous and behaving like children on the school playground who take pleasure at someones pain, shame on all of you. Our legal system says inocent until proven guilty by a jury of our peers. I gues that means that you all have been to collge and have at least a masters degree, and they have called you to serve as jurors cool. From the post that I have seen I doubt that to be the case. You folks just keep hating. People you are secretly jealous of and those of us who know better will pray for you

Submitted by Testout (not verified) on

Wow.

All You folks need to get lives.

No, really.

Submitted by the farmer (not verified) on

speaking of the "grip", Roberts and his wife could be incarcerated in the thumbs of the big hands tower. that'd rake in the big tourist attraction bucks too!

*

Submitted by patti doti (not verified) on

is very rare indeed, especially on TV. They may start out sincere but the lights go to their heads. lol

I noticed a Nancy Irving on here, are you the one that lived in Benton, KY for a while?

Patty

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I got a message from God. He loves your raggedy, hateful,prickly pear ass!
He's coming to visit you tonight. Be ready because he comes with all cataclysmic power and a host of millions of angels.
I asked Him to vist your hateful soul.

I stepped on a bug this morning. He was an atheist bug. He didn't know I existed before I turned his ass into ant juice.

Want more?

Submitted by lambert on

"In the Roberts shoes"? No, "how beautiful are thy feet with shoes" (Song of Solomon 7:1) isn't the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of those guys, believe me. Most abuse of power looks pathetic, after the abuser is exposed. So with the Roberts dynasty.

As for hating God, as Woody points out, that would be like hating the Great Pumpkin. Nothing there to hate...

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Ruth's picture
Submitted by Ruth on

Anyone who's served on a jury recently is well aware that the ones that get picked are generally the 'sinner' types, because they will have more sympathy for the accused. Us degreed types, like Woody who actually has 2 masters and assorted others, usually don't get picked.

This upswelling of bitterness from the right must be their Halloween mood. The ghoulies and goblins come out at this time of year.

Ruth

Ruth

Sarah's picture
Submitted by Sarah on

when somebody hurts you and you're powerless to stop them it makes you angry.

when you find out after the fact that you helped them hurt you because they misled you and played you, it makes you want to spread the hurt.

In the secular world, it's called breach of contract (and/or, depending on available evidence, intentional fraud).

In the sexual world it's called getting dumped (or finding out you've been two-timed).

In the spiritual world it's called "disillusionment".

The common theme here?

Remember that Jeep commercial a few years ago where the vehicle started to shake, and didn't stop until it looked like it had just come off the showroom floor -- while the dog, the owner, his wife, their kid, the McMansion and the sports gear all acquired a nubbly thick coat of lumpy brown?

We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Submitted by lambert on

Or did He just leave it in the mailbox?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.

Just keep talking to your dick. Very intelligent.

You are on your own. Those lying, hating demons that control your mind know about God. When He comes they will be GONE, believe me.

God is not coming to scare you. He is coming to talk to you, but he often brings the host with him.

One blink of his eyelash could turn your pitiful hide into a million particles of atoms and your mass into a puddle of water. He can divide your soul from your spirit and turn you into an animal like Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Daniel.
Jesus Christ kicked the butt of all principalities and powers(especially the demons you serve), and embarassed them openly. He is the Victor and he has given that power to his followers. If we mess up we answer to him, not a bunch of whiny god haters, who could not even take a breath if it were not for God.
God is a spirit, you mind is too limited to figure him out.
Oral Roberts fault was telling small minded carnal people what God told him. They don't understand with the spirit.They understand with their limited intellect like brute beasts according to the Bible.

If you know nothing about God, you need to stop the blasphemy because He is not to be played with.
I asked Him to come and talk to you tonight and He is going to do it. Get ready.

head is spelled "h e a d"
You are made in the image of God. You are greater than your dick!

Want more?

Sarah's picture
Submitted by Sarah on

why won't you acknowledge Him?

You come here making what appear to be threats, but you refuse to identify yourself in any way.

Leads me to believe you not only know your threats are empty, but you're an agent provocateur trying to start trouble with people who believe, as well as people who think.

Or are you really one of those poor deluded pathetic individuals who need to hide behind the spectre of a Christ indistinguishable from Jet Li?

You misinterpret the Bible, you fall for the violence and the vengeance, and you defame the Lord with your vanity.

Either own up to who and what you are and ask God for forgiveness privately or show yourself openly here.

We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I may be a dick, but I have a va jj. I am a woman kicking your ass today.

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I esteem You, oh wise one, high potentate, God of the internet slanders and haters of all that is good!

I bow low to your imagined intellectual prowess! I grovel at you imagined importance and your able effervescence!

I salute your exalted figger-outness and your esteemed brilliantosity!

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool with his own stupidity, or he will think he is wise.

I am still smarter than you.

Want more?

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

I stepped on a bug this morning. He was an atheist bug. He didn’t know I existed before I turned his ass into ant juice.

And when the flesh on your bones rots in the earth you will not know of the insects who will dine upon your rotting corpse. 'Twas ever thus. Note: cremation is not cheating per se, just substitute flaming gas jets for the little omnivores.

++++

When one's arguments rest on quicksand only a fool approaches.

But I am such a fool. What stands out for me in addressing the strident and non-self-reflecting on subjects such as this one is that, yes, humans are fallible, and make choices that are often less than what passes for moral ones. But what sticks out even more is when Christianists point the finger of blame everywhere around them, and then get all bent out of shape when their own hypocrisy (or behaviors of their high priests) are highlighted.

Atheists do not threaten those different from them with spiritual threats of eternal hellfire and suffering, nor do agnostics. Does a Christian enjoy the suffering of others, or feel satisfaction that another is forever doomed (I know, all they have to do is repent and accept the lord--how does anyone really know what anyone else has to do to be eternally safe from the wrath of the God they reportedly love?) There is so much talk of "values" that one is left with the word stripped of any meaning.

If one trumpets Christianity as superior to all other forms of worship or non-worship, then falls back on "well, we're all sinners" whenever yet another leader of Christians comes crashing out of the clouds with hookers and new shoes and meth-anointed massages in tow--how much respect does your dogma really deserve if your own fellow believers routinely trash it? What is the point of the narrowest interpretations of priestly Semitic writings as they apply to non-Semites? How can one say the Old Testament is revealed Truth and then bash jews? Christianity is a nightmare of competing storylines that can never jibe without submerging one's brain in buckets of bleach and cheap bourbon. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and pluck the beam from your eye: how many of us need much more instruction in morality and love than that? And when your leaders rip off your fellow believers perhaps Christians might consider doing a little more actual housecleaning instead of the broom-and-lifted-rug method.

Good luck to all who seek harmony with life and its mystery, as well as with its revealed splendors and demands. Pray the Giant God Bug doesn't squash you on your way to church.

++++

The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the face of the earth and men do not see it.

++++

Sarah's picture
Submitted by Sarah on

too much. Seriously. Can't tell if you're a concern troll or a (poor) satirist, but either way you're not kicking anybody's ass here today. You see, you lack imagination.
You lack a discerning heart. You fail to understand the principle Christ explained:
"For as much as you have not done it unto the least of these, you have not done it unto Me."

Christ didn't come to Earth to lead a vapid chorus of technically-adept, spiritually-bereft singers of discredited songs, nor to praise the bigots and thieves whose penny-ante dictatorialism so burdened the children of Israel that they forgot, in their efforts to conform, what God stood for and how God wanted them to live. Had Christ been what you claim not only wouldn't He have upbraided the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy, He would never have gone willingly to the Cross to save your sorry arrogant unrepentant self-important soul.

And the Letter to the Romans is the work of Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, whose conversion story -- while miraculous -- and whose exploits later all point to one thing: no personal contact with the Lord while He walked the shores of Galilee and the streets of Jerusalem.

Imagination is an aspect of intelligence.
Intelligence is a gift of creation.
Without intelligence there can be no true worship.
The Lord Your God seeks not the vain chanting of the infidel, the endless repetition of the Philistines, the public vanity of the prayer of the Pharisee, the Sadducee, the scribe.
The Lord Your God seeks an open heart, a humble spirit, a willing obedience, and an intelligent servant.

Can you grasp these concepts?

Or are you too brainwashed to understand that the same God who gave you sight and sense expected you to use those gifts in service to God by working for the betterment, not of a chosen few rich con artists, but all God's creation?
John 3:19


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Ruth's picture
Submitted by Ruth on

This tells me all I care to learn about ORU.

Sarah, you are very kind to try giving a perspective to the poor thing. And much more patient than I am. But I do hope that reading about loving kindness, peace and forgiveness will turn this sad case toward positive feelings toward creation and its creatures.

Ruth

Ruth

kelley b's picture
Submitted by kelley b on

Pray the Giant God Bug doesn’t squash you on your way to church.

When the song of the cosmic cicadas signals the End Time, a horde of ravening Holy Mantids will roam the corners of the world, lifting up and biting off the heads of the enraptured before laying eggs in them.

Then a Nuclear Winter will fall upon the land, until the cycle turns with the global warming of the spring.

The Faithful the Bug squashes will be lucky.

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

Submitted by lambert on

As in:

The snapping of giant alien insect mandibles...

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I believe I said in an earlier post that the Roberts will have to pay for their extravagant lifestyle but I am sure you did not see that- it makes too much sense.
I also said that when you are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ you are a kings child and He has the authority to discipline you and not internet slanderers, who don't even respect or believe in Him.

So now you wax poetic and serious after bragging about the size of your penis earlier?

You have been smacked in the face with truth and it singes...

As for the bugs, God told man to take dominion, and that means that anything that is a pestilence, get rid of it---like bugs and internet slander.
The giant bug will never squash me because I know my authority. You, on the other hand may need to watch out.

Nice quote about Apostle Paul. When I read it on that subject in Romans of men with men and women with women it means to me that to please God people should grow up, stop giving their flesh the deviance it craves and cleanse themselves in the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the sight of God.

I am not self righteous. I am telling the truth. If you can't bear it, so be it.
I wouldn't serve Satan. He is an abusive daddy.
Christians aren't perfect. We are FORGIVEN.

Anonymous coward

Submitted by lambert on

Funny, I would have said the abusive Daddy was Roberts.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Thats not funny. If he indeed gave his daughter a jet flight to an island for a celebration, thats the kind of abuse I want.

From Ephesians 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I really believe this stuff.

You like to quote a lot of imaginary characters. Did TV and movies nurture you? Captain Kirk, Harry Potter, and Star Wars come from the imagination of man. Jesus, on the other hand, is real.
Stop being mad at him without a cause.

I can't wait to spend time with my heavenly Father tonight, meditating in His word and fellowshipping with Him. I love Him! I love Him! I love Him!

Like the deer seeks the water brooks, so do my heart seek after God!

Christians aren't perfect. We are FORGIVEN.

Anonymous Coward

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

As for the bugs, God told man to take dominion, and that means that anything that is a pestilence, get rid of it—-like bugs and internet slander.

So man has dominion over bugs but God has dibs on what mankind does with his/her genitalia? Your god is kind of obsessive, yes? ...and the Lord took special interest in the reproductive organs, as these were filled with nerve endings. And lo, He said unto the people "By all means don't play with it and don't share it with your friends." The Lord had a boner once and just about shit a brick, so take it from Him (whom this writer is channeling) just baby-making sex and the occasional maintenance fuck from now on and that's it. How was He supposed to know that the humans He created would find so many other sexy things to do with their mouths, their butts, their penises, their vaginas, their breasts, their credit cards, their feet, their lips, their...eh, just give it a rest.

Funny thing about dominion over the animals, etc.: it's the little things that get you, such as rapdily mutating/evolving organisms known as MRSA.

Since we have a Believer on the line, what is up with God and genetic inheritance? What was His intention with MPB (Male Pattern Baldness)? I know we aren't supposed to ask questions, but seriously, why the MPB? Is he a a joker, a smoker, a midnight toker? "Okay, I'm an Intelligent Designer, a Creative Designer, how about I make hair fall out of a percentage of men (and women, but less so) and have this phenomenon continued via genetic inheritance. Just for shits and giggles. Yeah, I am so doing that one."

Also, extra bonus question: how does one speak for the ineffable? Does it take gall and ego and presumption, or just gall and presumption?

As that heretic Alan Watts used to say (paraphrased): One cannot have a conversation about religion with a Christian because the Christian sets him or herself up as both advocate and judge.

++++

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

silly. sharing your genitalia gets you and you friends some nasty infections like gonorhea, syphilis, chlamidia, yeast(not the good kind),std's (ever evolving and harder to destroy kinds),skin infections with harder to kill bacteria, let alone depression that comes from a careless life.
I am a minister. One day I was talking to a man who lived a, shall we say,"different lifestyle."
We were having a great convo about food. In the midst of the convo God said, "Tell him about me."
I said in my head. "God, this man is the prez of a bank. I can't witness to him!" I felt I needed to keep my religion to myself.
One year later the man was dying of Aids. Not just Aids but he had every kind of skin lesion imaginable. Found out he was a swinger.
Hospital personnel had to lay him naked on rubber sheets, because his skin was necrosing. Nurses argued among themselves as to whose time it was to change his diaper.
He screamed for a week. You could hear him down the hallways. His words were, "God why did you do this to me?"
Many other things like this happened to me before I decided that when I felt God wanted me to share, I would.
God knows that when you share your genitalia in the wrong way, it often brings misery, pain and even death. If he didn't love you he wouldn't warn you.
God designed sex, but in the proper context.

Hair falls out because of hormonal imbalances in the body, stress and even genetics. If you would seek God he would direct you.

Christians arent perfect. We are FORGIVEN.

anonymous coward

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Revelation 1:18
Psalm 9:17
psalm 18:5
Psalm86:13
Psalm 139:8
Proverbs 15:24
Revelation 6:8
Revelation 20:14

I wouldn't quote a man who was too iggnit to get a body guard in the land of assasination.

God says there is a heaven and a hell.
I am going with God. He's not dead.

Christians aren't perfect. We are FORGIVEN.

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

late payment bees? Bzz...(I know, that's not a pic of a bee, but the pun needed some sting to it and...)

I do dig the pic. It reminded me of that quote: God must really like beetles. Cuz the Great Designer made about a gazillion of them.

++++

Sarah's picture
Submitted by Sarah on

Is no excuse for being a jerk. That's the part God wants you to understand. That's the part Jesus taught.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Submitted by lambert on

... for turning "fellowship" into a verb. Of course, they can just have the God Of Their Choice, If Any issue them a "Get Out Of Grammar Hell Free" card, but the rest of us have to live with the consequences.a

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Christians aren't perfect. WE ARE FORGIVEN by God.

You are hard to follow. First you preach about hypocrites. Then you say you will never forgive. Geez.

Submitted by Carlos (not verified) on

"I will never forgive the Christianists..."
I am so glad it is not you that I look to for forgiveness. I am amazed at the anger coming from people who have no real stake in Roberts ministry. You guys act like they harmed you, when most of you are athiest and agnostics. Jesus said to forgive if you can't His father won't, Matt 6:15 and mark 11:26. This means that we "Christianists" as you like to call us must forgive Roberts if they are found to be wrong, and you folk who have chosen to take joy in their pain before all the evidence has been displayed. I do not know what the out come will be but I do know I will choose to forgive even if the world calls me foolish for doing so. You say Beleiving in God is like beleiving in the great pumpkin well all I can say is 1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

Submitted by xan (not verified) on

My very least favorite is "task." "The battalion was tasked to take out the insurgents in block 17..." I had a book I was supposed to review (on a Civil War regiment, but written by a guy who was at the time recently retired military) that I slogged through about 20 pages of and just put it down, unable to go any further, and never did the damn review. Because every time somebody was sent, assigned, ordered, designated, suggested, or otherwise commanded to do something, he phrased it as they were "tasked" to do the item in question.

Drove me nuts. And the author is a friend and great guy and really researched the shit out of this book and we had hoped to promote it and help his sales and besides which he lives not 50 miles away and worked every connection he has to get his dream job working at a Civil War national park.

But I could not review his book because of that damn "task" as a verb business. Maybe I should fellowship him about it and see if it can be corrected in the second edition.

But back to the Christianists, none of them seem at all acquainted with Matthew 6: 5-6, so I figure they are all ignorant twits and should be ignored. If they give me any shit after that I ask them how many coats they own after which they usually either go ballistic or, if decent, slink away in shame.

Submitted by lambert on

it's because lunatics like Exhibit A on this thread made agnosticism untenable for anyone with an ounce of self-respect.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

sorry to know that you are going to die, when it would be so easy to live. goodbye.

Submitted by lambert on

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

Hair falls out because of hormonal imbalances in the body, stress and even genetics. If you would seek God he would direct you.

So, you know God's gender, and you know "he" would direct me: to where exactly, Hair Club For Men?

The question was, if a transcendant God created everything, why create MPB? Christianists know so much about the ineffable, the "true" history of the world, creation, morality, miracles, etc. Pray, why did the creator toss in hair loss, and then only for a percentage of the population? Why?*

The 3 Headed God of the Middle East: probably at least one of them has a combover.

++++

*Hint: it's a bullshit question for a bullshit creator.

++++

Woody--Tokin Librul's picture
Submitted by Woody--Tokin Librul on

that's precisely the reason you theistic crapholes invented your gods: you cannot face death and the finality it implies...
grow the fuck up!
everything dies...

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Submitted by lambert on

Really, MJS, I'm surprised you don't know that. It's somewhere in Deuteronomy. Or possibly Leviticus.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by xan (not verified) on

when dealing with religionizers of the Abrahamic sects. Every 613th one or so that you run into has actually read their purported holy book, and I'm afraid they'll go all 2nd Kings: 23 on my ass.

[sets bear-repellent rock* on top of monitor]

*formerly tiger-repellent rock with the word "tiger" crossed out and the word "bear" written in with purple crayon

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

which is why I bring it up. As Xan points out above.

Having she-bears kill children for making fun of a man's baldness...I'm telling you, there's some deeper problem here. God & MPB. Once this subject is exhausted we can then take a look at cleft palates, hair lips, spinal bifada, etc.

If God saves a life, praise be to God. If God takes a life, it is God's will. If God saves you from the cancer that God gave you all praise to God! If God does something completely batshit arbitrary and perhaps even a little bit mean it's a mystery. God-flavored answers come in a wide variety of flavors.

Fun fact: if you tap dance while pretending to know the unknowable your thighs will firm up!

++++

Sarah's picture
Submitted by Sarah on

focused on "sharing your genitalia" (cf this:
Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on Sat, 2007-10-27 05:57.) to the point of obsession and, as obsessions eventually do, the exclusion of rational thought.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Submitted by the farmer (not verified) on

Christians aren’t perfect. We are FORGIVEN

...WE (The FORGIVEN) have forgiven ourselves. Praise Him. Kill the infidels. God is Great!

*

Submitted by lambert on

Roberts and the rest of his Pharisaical crew have been the footsoldiers for a Conservative movement that's been busily helping Bush make war in Iraq and destroy our Constitutional system.

Moreover, Roberts and the rest of his Pharisaical crew have been looting billions from the Federal purse--my tax dollars--in Bush's so-called faith-based initiatives.

You Christianists have always wanted religion "in the public square." And now you've put your religion right smack in the middle of it -- making war, wrecking the Bill of Rights, taking tax money. Because you're in the public square, I have "a stake." And when you're in the public square, you should expect people to get angry when you pull stuff like you've been pulling. Suck it up and deal.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

Not those mean crucifix nails, but metaphorical ones.

Conservative Christianists have thrust their agenda(s) into the public square. Confusing people about the differences between observable quanta and mythology, steering a secular state into a theological one, doing the bidding of leaders who would destroy this world for a few dollars more...the old days of "respecting" inane biblical literalism as sacrosanct in the public sphere are over for those of us who truly care about our Constitution--it, along with the Declaration of Independence, are the most important founding documents in our country, and we who love freedom will not walk lightly away while others defecate on our rights.

The ones who will kill religion? They will be the most strident, agressive believers, for they do not trust their own belief. There will be aught left of their Nicean Code before the waters consume us all.

Oh, about the hair thing: God is some kind of hair-weirdo. Not sure why. Probably genetic.

++++

Submitted by Carlos Lott (not verified) on

You nailed it, Lambert
Submitted by MJS on Mon, 2007-10-29 00:52.
Not those mean crucifix nails, but metaphorical ones.

He Did no such thing. The faith based initiative Lambert mentioned in his post was a good idea all Faith based organizations not just the Christian movement are invited to be a part of this to help the poor heck they already were with the funds that were coming from their own private donations, and doing a better job of it than the Gov was so get a grip and quit throwing those stones at the Christianist as if they were the only ones enjoying this program they are not, bud but you knew that. You guys want to accuse any-one that does not agree with you of being an enemy of our beloved constitution, and the bill of rights. I say it is you that are afraid not us I want the constitution to stay the way it was writtenjust as you we just have different veiws on life and the after life. I have never sought to push you to change your veiw as I hope you would not mine, but to publicly trash another person or their family is wrong too. Remember forgivness comes from us and God Matt 6:15 and mark 11:26

chicago dyke's picture
Submitted by chicago dyke on

it makes reading your boring superstitious tripe more interesting to the rest of us. or bearable. or something. thanks so much for stopping by. and trust me: i am so very, very not "afraid" of you. or any of your type. indeed, you should be afraid of me. i know your religion better than you do.

and as for "public" trashing of people families- what? you don't think people are fair game because they have famous relations? what country do you live in? chelsea clinton, anyone?

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

Roberts and the rest of his Pharisaical crew have been the footsoldiers for a Conservative movement that’s been busily helping Bush make war in Iraq and destroy our Constitutional system.

Helping the poor is noble and commendable. Serving up dogma with the more savory portions is your quid pro quo...not as tasty as taters, but okay. The real thrust of these tales (at least from my POV) is the weakening of our secular Constitutional government by Christianists. To me, it is an act of treason to put the bible ahead of the Constitution, if by putting it ahead I circumvent or trash the rights guaranteed therein. Anti-American, if you will. Most of the time religious practitioners have been able to have both, but hardcore Christianists are not satisfied with having over 80% of Americans identifying themselves as Christians, they need to shove their religion into arenas funded by taxpayer dollars, and that's when many of us cry "Foul!" Leave god to your churches and leave the government to reason (imbued, one would hope, with compassion and decency).

I believe that shoving bronze-age beliefs into the modern public quad will do more harm to so-called Christianity then 10,000 atheists dancing on the head of a pin during pledge week in the newly decommissioned Limbo. The Christianist religion--what went into its bible and what didn't go in, and how those entries were worded, was voted upon by Bishops gathered at Nicea during the rule of Emperor Constantine, capiche? The celebration of Jesus' birth is December 25th--the same birthday of two other Mediterranean "dying-and-resurrected" gods: Mithras & Dionysus. The cat is out of the bag (as it were) about the foundations of this belief system, and the more you try to shove that cat into the lives of those who know an actual cat from a literal canary (some who even understand the basic elements of mythology and wishfull-thinking, aware also of the impulses and archetypes that inform them) the more primitive your logic can be seen to be.

The more a True Believer reacts to life reflexively instead of reflectively, the more the Believer will find him or herself spouting biblical chapter numbers instead of cogent observations. The bible and the cross may ward off vampires but by themselves are not a quality match for reason and the Constitution of the United States: be careful invoking one's dogma while standing deeper and deeper in a corner that the spouter painted him or herself into.

You may have your religion and eat it too (well, the Catholics anyway) just do not expect everyone to roll over while the Christianist invasion of our secular Democracy continues. We ain't rolling over. I believe there is a power in belief, but such power carries responsibility as it has capacity to do "good" as well as harm. Direct your own ship to offer aid and comfort to the afflicted, but also to let other ships pass without making them pay a spiritual toll. We will protest, and we will be heard. And beware of those sirens singing to you from the rocks: they ain't mermaids.

++++

kelley b's picture
Submitted by kelley b on

A number of ancient resurrection types got born again on the 25th of December.

Word has it that "the three wise men" were actually the belt of Orion, pointing to the star Sirius (the brightest star in the sky) as the star of Bethlehem.

This is colinear to the exact spot on the southeastern horizon the Southern Cross appears on December 25th in Egypt. Or so it is said, I've never tested it.

This is also incidently 1 arc degree North of the furthest march south of the sun in winter, signifying the Great Hairy Thunderer has seen fit to bring the sun back from its wintertime low point if you're a bronze age astrologer.

Or an iron age Imperial trying to co-opt a bronze age religion that will keep the slaves working without complaining too much.

Fat lot of good it did them. The Visigoths, the first real Chrisitianist TheoCons outraged at the gay cosmopolitans, sacked Rome anyway. This ushered in the first shadows of the Dark Age.

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

No hell below us…
I have had many encounters with God and I know that there is a hell.
My soul was cast down to hell many years ago. I am a living witness. Hell is a spiritual place. The spirit and soul is eternal. They can never be destroyed.

The book of Revelation contains many refererences to hell.
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 6:8
Revelation 20:13
Revelation 20:14

The Holy Bible contains many scriptures that speak of hell. The best known is Luke 16:20-26 The Bible continually warns of a place called hell.

There are over 162 references in the New Testament alone which warns of hell. And over 70 of these references were uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ!

Man is a spirit, he has a soul and he lives in a physical body. The real you is the spirit. It will either return to God or a place designated by God.
Hell contains many compartments below the earth, Ephesians 4:9. Some are worst than others, all are areas of confinement. Once the soul is in hell, it cannot escape. My soul entered a place of hell because I was in deep intercession for someone, somehow I ended up there.
I kept my confession true and escaped.

The worst parts of hell are the fiery lake, reserved for the extremely wicked. Other parts are simply dark, distant and forlorn deserts. Others have said they were shown a lake of blood.

Hell has billions and billions of inhabitants, all in a state of grief, shock, and hopelessness. It is a place of tumult, filth, and anguish. Hell is a spiritual place. All of it’s inhabitats beg for the same thing, water. Whether spiritual or physical, I do not know. As a counselor, I have heard many say that their soul went to hell. Satan will be an inhabitant in the lake of fire. He hopes to take as many humans with him as possible. He does this by convincing man not to believe God’s word.

A certain intercessor, a writer, claims there is an 18 mile long area of hell which contains the souls of satanic workers. She believes Jesus took her to this place to see it. It is place for the broken hearted place because many of the people were duped and fooled into thinking if they served him, he would protect them, but he is a liar and when their souls exited their bodies they were bound over to discarnate angels. It is a place of insurmountable grief and tragedy and continual torture by the discarnate ones who hate humankind...
If you cannot see God or perceive Him, you may have a spiritual condition like Apostle Paul’s scales. It is a spiritual blindness, found in Acts 9:18.

Christians are redeemed. They are not "good" people. They just have a free "get out of hell" card because of Jesus Christ. It is a gift from God. Favor. Unmerited. They did nothing to receive it, but received Jesus. God requires a blood sacrifice. I have asked him many times why, but He refers me to his word. That is just how it is. When Jesus ascended to heaven, he took his blood as the sacrifice.

Christians have the blood line and are adopted. Ephesians 1:14. Jesus purchased man with his own blood.
Many children of kings and the very wealthy people upon the earth are awful kids, but they have the inheritance because of their father. They have the blood line and you cannot take it from them. Many good people who will be separated from God will think that this is unfair.,but God made the rule and man cannot use his own righteousness or goodness. We live and die by God’s rules.

On the cross, the robber hanging next to the Lord went to paradise because he received the blood line. He was the worst kind of man. A robber will break in on a family while they are in their home; kill everyone, for a few dollars. (A thief is sneaky and stealthy.) Our goodness means nothing to God.

When the angels see the blood of Jesus they passover and protect you. If you are not blood bought or blood covered, you fall into the hands of the discarnate angels---dying they die—(This refers to an unregenerate state Adam was in, also)-These are part of the 1/3 angels who rebelled with Satan. They grow more and wicked every moment. They cannot be helped. They are spiritually bereft. They are actively involved in the business of earth. They influence and direct the lives and will of unaware people. They wait on the souls of the unsaved at death.

The word of God is not understood with the intellect. It is spiritually discerned. The scriptures are hidden for the believer. As you read them, the Holy Spirit imparts an understanding according to your growth and His will. The 24 elders and all others in heaven are still learning about the magnificence of God. His ways are past finding out. You cannot figure him out. He will answer a prayer one way and the next time He may answer it in a completely different way.

Heaven is a place of learning wisdom and growth.
It is vast and expansive. When you seek the Lord with your whole heart, He shows you many incredible things about the universe.

The first heaven is above the earth. It had administrations, principalities all organized and directed by spiritual beings. Their job is to influence negatively what goes on in the earth. I have seen them and fought with them in my life and times. I have been rescued by others who prayed for me and rescued people myself. When my son began playing a certain board game, his personality changed. He became stubborn, disrespectful and rebellious. I could not rest and kept praying in his room. One day I saw what it was. He did not know I could see him. Most people cannot. It is a spiritual gift called Discernment.I told it to get away from my son in the name of Jesus. It vanished.

People who do not know their authority are vexed and toyed with by these beings on a daily basis. They come to destroy lives, jobs, homes, everything, John 10:10. Hollywood knows about these spirits. They are a frequent subject of movies.

The fight is with words. The word of God is a sword. When you say the name of Jesus, spirits fall. His name in the heavens has cataclysmic power and authority. It is like an atom bomb. Fallen angels steer clear of people who know this authority.

Christians who use the Bible for gain will be exposed. Corrupt Christians hinder the cause of Christ.
Prayer gives God the authority to operate on the earth. Adam was duped into giving the earth to Satan, but the inhabitants who invite God in do so with prayer. This is the reason for prayer.

As we speak, thousands of people are falling into Hell right now from the earth. They are terrified, anguished and many do not realize what has happened to them. They gave up their birthright. Can you give up your birthright? Yes. Esau sold his for a bowl of stew. Hebrews 12:16.
They were duped by man’s understanding, intellect, lies, and fables.

Hell’s environment is torment and fear, but it is also preaching. The false preachers preach in hell because they are full of the word. They do it from memory. These are the preachers who were greedy of gain and mislead people and took advantage of them. Their names were blotted out of the book of life. Angels also sing songs over the damned in hell, but as I said before, they cannot leave, ever. Hell is eternal.

Luke 16:28, Father I have five brothers. Please send Abraham to warn them about this place of torment I am in. His answer-“If they will not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not hear someone who rose from the dead.”
They are doomed because of unbelief. They are trying to see God with their own very limited intellect instead of their spirit.

During the California earthquake a section of an overpass had broken away and fallen 300 feet to the highway below. The Highway Patrol set up a road block diverting people away—telling them to turn around and find an alternate route. One man would not stop. He knocked down the barriers and continued.

They begged and pleaded for him to stop, but he thought they were lying and trying to control him. He just did not believe. He sped away. Several hundred yards down the road he saw the broken highway but could not stop. He fell 300 feet to his death.

Ezekiel 3:18, 19.

Submitted by lambert on

Devising all those torments.

Just out of curiousity, anonymous coward, how do you know that you aren't in Hell now?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

here comes the forkball
here comes a curve
god is the batter
better steel your nerve

look in at the catcher
wind it up and pitch
nobody hits it
ain't that a bitch

where is the batter
the lord of us all
how come he never
swings at the ball?

(chorus)
the spirit is willing
the spirit is torn
the spirit is killing
all that is born
a swing and a miss...
jesus wasn't a christian
god wasn't a jew
shot full of steroids
what is the lord to do?
a swing and a miss...

give me a brochure
sell me a plot
I took the tour
I want what you got

the game is all over
the fat lady sings
no runs were scored
no world series ring

tell me a tale
paint me a scene
when it's time to deliver
you deliver nothing

(chorus)
the spirit is willing
the spirit is torn
the spirit is killing
all that is born
a swing and a miss...
jesus wasn't a christian
god wasn't a jew
shot full of steroids
what is the lord to do?
a swing and a miss...

this universe
it wasn't a goof
we'd hail the creator
if we just had some proof

but proof is for doubters
faith is all you need
there is only the one path
where the spirit can bleed

you have got to believe
to travel that road
got a yahoo map
and a cross to load

(chorus)
the spirit is willing
the spirit is torn
the spirit is killing
all that is born
a swing and a miss...
jesus wasn't a christian
god wasn't a jew
shot full of steroids
what is the lord to do?
a swing and a miss...

god is perfection
a king who's the best
just where the throne is
is anyone's guess

threaten the future
shake a fist at the sky
it's time to play ball now
just where is your guy?

a swing and a miss...

++++

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I am at peace as long as I trust God. There is no peace in hell. Hell is a place of misery and regret, hopelessness and fear. Only when I take my eyes off of Him and His promises do I experience fear and hopelessness. Matthew 14:26-31.

Torments
Hell is a place of torment, but it was not created for man. Man makes a choice whether or not he spends eternity there. Man has to refuse the grace of God.
Hell was created for Lucifer and his fallen angels. Revelation 12:9, Matthew 25:41.

The being that is responsible of making man depressed and hopeless is mentioned here, Matthew 13:39.

Nice poem. Man mocks
Mark 10:34

God mocks, too. Proverbs 1:26

Submitted by lambert on

Apparently, the God of Your Choice spends a lot of time devising incredibly cruel torments. (Whether people "choose" to undergo them is another matter; TGOYC still devised them.)

So, I'm imagining what the most cruel torment would be for a person like you, and that would be this:

For God to torment you by allowing you, falsely, to believe that you're saved when in fact you're not; and to later reveal your illusion to you. Sort of a Lucy and the Football thing, you know?

So I ask again: How do you know you're not already in Hell?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

Why is "mockery" so annoying or insulting to that which is the alpha and omega of all? Low self-esteem? Paranoia?

Is god a cranky old man who just wants the kids to shut up and tell him how great he is? What is the point of having a god if such a divinity exists primarily to bask in a bunch of brown-nosing?

AC: Let god out of your little box. Let god out of your limitations, your clunky, bronze age concepts. And while we're at it: Leave Jesus Alone, For Crissakes! Stop bugging your deities! Cut 'em some slack! It's all do this and save me from your own harsh judgements that. If you love god you'll let the very concept go. If it doesn't come back, so what? At least you did a good deed.

++++

Submitted by lambert on

I heard a Buddhist friend of mine say: "No, we have no God."

What a relief!

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by xan (not verified) on

Nice to see we can agree on something, AC.

Um, but, since you have such Contacts with the On High and all, you should see if I can get forgiven for asking something? (this involving the "intellect" which you say is a Bad Thing, which raises the question of why that On High party sort of included it in the deal and all...) but you could maybe explain to me why somebody who is on such cozy terms with said On High feels such a level of insecurity that he (I have for some reason no question at all about your gender) has to sign in to a crappy D-level blog as "anonymous coward"?

It somehow does nothing to enhance my inclination to take your testimonial seriously. If you have such a Big Dude getting your back that just saying his name freaks out the demon who is inducing your kid to play D&D or whatever the game was, why is it you're too afraid to pick even a pretend name to do your Sermonette here?

Sorry, pal, but I think you are either in the grips of a mental affliction which could possibly be cured and you restored to healthful living through medication, or you are a quivering nerd so convinced of your own inadequacy that you have to create a fantasy world in which you are raised to some sort of imaginary All Fired Wisdom which is denied to us lesser creatures.

You are however a fairly impressive writer. I hope you can gain some self-confidence one of these days and live on your own two feet rather than suspended from the wires of some winged force that protects you from the fears which so torment you.

best wishes, really. I hope you can be cured someday, it's really a great world in a lot of ways if you just weren't so afraid of it. And death? That's just an end. Like going to sleep, ya know?

If you've led a good life there are a few people who are sad about your death because they loved you, and remember you for awhile. But that lake of fire thing, naw. Doesn't happen. Makes no sense. And your description of "heaven" is nearly as silly.

And the "hell" stuff about which you go into such detail? Really now. What kind of all-powerful being would invent such filth? Such hateful crap? Only a human could come up with such a primitive notion. It's all vengeance concepts of the powerless and a wish to get back at those who have done you wrong.

But really, we just die. And then it's all over and you don't know any more. The End, like it says on the movie screen, y'know? Never quite understood why this concept was not clear to everybody.

I'm not looking forward to it mind you. Not any happier about the prospect than you are. But is the only alternative inventing some convoluted cosmology in which a deranged child torments us like bugs while the forces of dark energy are pushing the galaxies apart? Pfui.

Coming to an end is scary but everything does, from bugs to stars. When the black wing waves over you, you're in good company.

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

I am a woman, a messenger.
You don’t have a disagreement with me. You have a disagreement with God. His word says there is a heaven and a hell. I did not know. I just say what God said about it. I believe him. I don’t believe John Lennon. God was not on Quaaludes, I don’t imagine.

Lake of fire
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:20

Biblical scriptures that mention heaven

1. (Gen 1:1 - Gen 27:28)
2. (Gen 27:39 - Deu 4:19)
3. (Deu 4:26 - Deu 31:28)
4. (Deu 32:40 - 1Ki 8:39)
5. (1Ki 8:43 - 2Ch 2:12)
6. (2Ch 6:13 - Ezr 7:12)
7. (Ezr 7:21 - Job 38:29)
8. (Job 38:33 - Psa 103:11)
9. (Psa 104:12 - Isa 13:10)
10. (Isa 14:12 - Jer 44:17)
11. (Jer 44:18 - Dan 2:44)
12. (Dan 4:11 - Dan 12:7)
13. (Hsa 2:18 - Mat 5:45)
14. (Mat 5:48 - Mat 14:19)
15. (Mat 16:1 - Mat 24:31)
16. (Mat 24:35 - Luk 3:21)
17. (Luk 3:22 - Luk 21:33)
18. (Luk 22:43 - Act 4:12)
19. (Act 4:24 - Eph 6:9)
20. (Phl 2:10 - Rev 4:2)
21. (Rev 5:3 - Rev 13:6)
22. (Rev 13:13 - Rev 21:3)
23. (Rev 21:10 - Rev 21:10)

Yep, you are right. I am terrified of God. 15 years ago he gave me an experience that I will never forget. It was like being caught up in a hurricane, only a million times worse. He told me preach, write and fight against lies on the earth, to tell people about him. (I had been hiding for years—knowing exactly that I was called).
I know his grace, his love and communion. I also know his power and yes, I am not just “reverently respectful…”I am scared of the power and anger I saw and felt. If you think God is happy and serene to see human beings losing their souls to evil forces and lies upon the earth, you are not thinking straight. Any father would be upset.

Torments
Hell was created for the devil and his followers. Man CHOOSES that torment because he does not believe the Bible. It is senseless to jump into a ravine, a cave, an awful place when you are warned not to.

Be entertained, but rock stars , Harry Potter, Baseball, imps, Star Wars, dragons, warlocks, and charmers, do no have the truth.
God does.

Who I am.
You don’t have to know who I am to read my perspective.

Psalm 53:1

Submitted by lambert on

Nice to see that gender-challenged anonymous coward has discovered Drupal's keen facility for auto-generating links to the Bible from citations thereto.

How do you know you're not in hell now, AC? I'm still waiting for an answer to that.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

YOU say there IS no hell. How can I be in hell? You have to believe in hell to ask me if I am there.
Gotcha!

No, I am not in hell. Find a new question to ask me.

I am at peace and enjoying myself immensely.

Submitted by lambert on

AC, you need to brush up on your casuistry, or you'll never make it as a Christianist. I ask:

How do you know you’re not already in Hell?

You respond:

You have to believe in hell to ask me if I am there.
Gotcha!

If I asked:

How do you know that you're not already in Atlantis?

that doesn't imply that I believe in Atlantis. The knowing is in your putative mind, not mine.

Incidentally, you never answered my question. Go back to the use case, please. Search on "Lucy."

Yes, I understand that you claim to be at peace, but, if true, perhaps that's due to the brain damage?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

We are not going to die. Neither myself nor you Lambert, because of the power of prayer. You too, Kelly. We are going to live forever.

See you guys in heaven.

Jude 1:22-25.

Submitted by lambert on

And that would include you, anonymous coward. That makes life on this earth, in this moment, all the more precious and beautiful. It's a shame so may Christianists like to torture and kill people, isn't it? Then again, how--heh--could evolution work if all that lives did not die? Making Christianists predators, weeding out the bad stock, I suppose...

And if you're going to pray for something, could I get some money to finish my deck? The check from Soros didn't come. Thanks.

NOTE You still haven't answered my question.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi

Submitted by Mike Wolford OR... (not verified) on

It appears that most of the rants that I read here are from miguided people that don't have the insight to what ORU brings to the Tulsa community. There are a lot of folks at the university that are there to take part in an incredible educational experience, coupled with the opportunity to strenghten their walk with Christ along the way. If you haven't been a part of this, I certainly would not expect any of you to understand, but during my time there, I saw many significant changes in my life and the lives of others. Where else can you count on thirty-five other wing mates to spend all night praying for the needs of others? I contend that those locations are few. Where else is there an opportunity to get to know stand up people that work with an organization for reasons other than the almighty dollar? These locations are also very few. Please don't foget about the economic impact that those 200 acres on S. Lewis have made over the past two decades. ORU IS South Tulsa. Ask Walmart if the students and faculty of ORU make an impact at 81st and Lewis??? You need to understand that the administration is not ORU. Yes there are things that are wrong, but if we are going to start pointing fingers at all that is bad, we must be ready to open up our own cupboards to make an account of any and all of our missteps. What they do certainly should be accounted for. Is it necessary, though, to bring down something good, when steps can be taken to correct the mistakes that were made? If you called to be at ORU, then you need to go. If you are not called there, that is ok too. But, if all you are providing is an uninsightful rant....Shut your hole.

kelley b's picture
Submitted by kelley b on

because obviously education is the last thing they want for you at ORU.

Go on with your "Hallowed are the ORU" routine. It's much funnier than any lame jokes I could come up with.

When you breathe your last, and realize they've taken your mind and your time of life, perhaps you will hear the cicadas, and know Ascension doesn't depend on the satisfaction of a bronze age god-meme twisted to enslave in the age of iron and perfected for the TV audience in the age of the guilded screen.

The Great Zorak's Queen knows where you live.

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

bringiton's picture
Submitted by bringiton on

I believe you speak eloquently for everyone here who is an ORU critic, far more ably than any parody could possibly achieve.

"Where else can you count on thirty-five other wing mates to spend all night praying for the needs of others?"

If you and the wing-mates had gotten more rest, you could have paid better attention in those English classes - but perhaps that would have been too self-centered for someone as holy as yourself.

"Where else is there an opportunity to get to know stand up people that work with an organization for reasons other than the almighty dollar?" followed by "Ask Walmart if the students and faculty of ORU make an impact at 81st and Lewis???"

Absolutely, ah, priceless.

Thank you for making my day.

Submitted by xan (not verified) on

Since at least One Who Never Got Around to Reading Matthew 6:24 has been sacked.

(Okay technically "quit" but I prefer the Python version, wherein "has been sacked" is said with a pronounced British accent):

The president of Oral Roberts University facing accusations he misspent school funds to support a lavish lifestyle resigned on Friday, officials said.

Richard Roberts' resignation is effective immediately, according to a statement e-mailed from George Pearsons, chairman of the school's Board of Regents.

Roberts and the university have come under fire since a lawsuit was filed by three former professors last month.

The lawsuit includes allegations of a $39,000 shopping tab at one store for Richard Roberts' wife, Lindsay, a $29,411 Bahamas senior trip on the university jet for one of Roberts' daughters, and a stable of horses for the Roberts children.

Roberts, son of school founder and televangelist Oral Roberts

In fact all of Matthew 6 seems to have slipped Mr. Jr. Rev. Roberts attention. Tsk. Teh shame.

Submitted by Michael (not verified) on

Let us not label Christians as this group of people that have exclusive rights to these problems. I do not know enough about the facts to hurl stones, although history gives us plenty of stones, but if you look close enough to any group you can pick from the pile to stand someone against the wall to stone them. As with most groups there are far more good works by ordinary people than the few in the news that get to feel the rather of public opinion (Even though it may be deserved in a particular situation).
PS: Sorry if there are errors I am not an English student.

Submitted by Sallie Mayes (not verified) on

Don't be fooled by ORU, TKC&S and others' so-called accreditation. It's a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" scam as those at one school get on the accreditation team to help out those at another. That's what Peer Accreditation means! If Jack Hayford is wise he will expose what has gone on behind the scenes of his institution before it is likewise too late.

MJS's picture
Submitted by MJS on

Then I guess the slaughtering of 42 "teen delinquent-types" via two she-bears, for the crime of mocking a righteous bald man ("go up, bald head") is what, exactly? I repeat: the old guy has a thing about the MPB...

++++
(with a nod to the Dire Straits)

I want my MPB

Now look at them delinquents, that's the way you do it
You mock a bald man in the Middle East
They ain't children, that's because they're teenage
You ain't no kid when you hit thirteen
They ain't children, that's because they're teenage
Lemme tell you those kids are dumb
Maybe g*d would save them if they were ten or eleven
Maybe g*d would bang them like a drum

We gotta wander out in the desert
Moses custom deliveries
We gotta stop these insinuators
We gotta stop these hairy hijinks

(see the little schmendrick with the dreadlocks and the tatoos
yeah buddy that's his own hair
that little schmendrick got his own mezzuzah
that little schmendrick's got his own she-bear)

We gotta wander out in the desert
Moses custom deliveries
We gotta stop these insinuators
We gotta stop these hairy hijinks

I shoulda learned to style the hair
I shoulda learned to make them wigs
Look at that hippie, he got it growin' in the midback
Man we could grow some
And he's up there, how's that? Rabbinic dreadlocks?
Curlin' on his coiff like a damn Bee Gee
That ain't mockin' that's the way we do it
Get your braids for nothing and your dreads for free

We gotta wander out in the desert
Moses custom deliveries
We gotta stop these insinuators
We gotta stop these hairy hijinks

Look a' here
That ain't Elisha, that's the bald guy fuming
You makin' fun of his MPB
That ain't mockin' that's the way you blow it
Yahweh will kill you with the bears indeed
Yahweh will kill you with the bears indeed

You ain't no kid when you hit thirteen

Look at that, look at that

Look at that, look at that

You ain't no kid when you hit thirteen
I want my, I want my, I want my MPB
You ain't no kid when you hit thirteen

(Fade over sound of two she bears killing those teenage delinquent types)
I want my, I want my, I want my MPB...

++++

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Televangelists!

Much like the rest of the mentally challenged trogladites found on "religious" TV, the Roberts clan will slowly disappear IF they find some substance to the allegations.

With almost $2 billion (yes billion) a year going into this extreme form of entertainment (WWE anyone?) it is about time the Tax Man Cometh!

Submitted by Ed (not verified) on

My cousin attended the King's college in California. She was disappointed that it was nothing near like what is espoused in Jack Hayford's teachings. Not much spiritual life or passion among faculty or students. A great amount of Pastor Jack worship by the institution instead. Too bad. She left.

Submitted by anonymous coward (not verified) on

Bakers, Roberts, Swaggart, They are all the same. They take all of the money and live like kings & queens and tell thier flock that GOD wishes this for them because they are doing his will. Money is the root to all evil. But the flock will be asked to forgive, and they will, and this will just become a memory. Crooks in the White House, Crooks in the church, church backs the politicians, politicians accept the money. Where does it all end? And where did the 1Billion dollars go. Can anyone say "OFF SHORE ACCOUNT"? Investigate them and if they are found guilty, then jail'em all.