Here. Of course, "we do not torture," and the Village
doesn't want any Villager held accountable for anything, ever, but still, encouraging signs. I mean, imagine if Hayden were kept on as a holdover in the spirit of bi-partisanship.
So, while I'm definitely in "hope but verify" mode, I regard this as a good sign. The CIA doesn't need a technical expert at the top; they need an actual manager. By all accounts Panetta is that.
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he's not at the top -- Blair is, as DNI --
How Obama's New Intelligence Chief Ran Interference for Indonesia's Butchers --
The Skeletons in Dennis Blair's Closet --
more -- Gates & Blair = status quo --
With Dennis Blair, Don't Expect Smarter Intelligence --
DiFi -- "I was not informed"
-- Friction on Panetta --
Aw, come on. We're quoting DiFi?
This DiFi?
If DiFi's got her knickers in a twist, I couldn't be more pleased. As I said, the Gang of Eight system has totally compromised Congress. If the "professionals" try to knife Obama, maybe he'll see sense and put them on trial for war crimes.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Panetta
Quite frankly, I don't care what Panetta has to say about his job; he's hardly the right choice for the job. This is probably the most egregious of Obama's picks. He seems to have a knack for misidentifying strengths, talents, and experience and thus placing people into offices in which they don't belong, if you ask me. It kind of reminds me how Obama got his job. He can come across as a nice enough guy, though, barely suited to the task. I'm sure Mother Teresa was against torture, too. It doesn't mean I want to see her as head of the CIA.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
Panetta will eat Blair for lunch
and Gates is a short-timer, 18-24 months at most. By the end of Obama's first two years the whole intelligence apparatus will have changed completely and I anticipate for the better.
Watched Panetta very closely during the workup to the new Denver International Airport and as much as I disagreed with everything he did I was certainly impressed with his mastery of the system and how easily he forced the various agencies involved to dance to his tune. He's not one of my favorites, DIA is a horror, but if you want someone to whip an agency into shape Leon is your guy - he reads people like a book and has no scruples when it comes to getting what he wants.
What we still don't know clearly is Obama's take on intelligence policy and that is what matters more than who he taps to head the departments. Regards torture, though, Panetta has been more than clear and I can't see Obama placing him atop CIA unless he actually intends to put an end to the practices.
Regards Feinstein, maybe this is the first hint from the new team that she should seriously consider a run for California governor.
CIA matters less these days
putting it in short form: they've got too much history, too much rivalry, and too many regulations. those who want to torture and run little private kingdoms of slavery and embezzlement have moved on to the next big thing: the new agencies. and the 'new and improved' agencies. DHS, various hardly discussed internationally oriented DoD aspects, "independent" contracting intel services, and of course the ever growing NSA. who needs the CIA, with all that oversight and public scrutiny, when you can be even more shadowy and have an even less open budget? also, that whole "establishment" thing in the intel world: old timers and the scions of the old time dynasties may still go to CIA, but the dusty "hookers, limos and blow" intel people of this world? feh. who needs all that studying to learn languages and getting good with martial arts? that's not where the real money and power are.
panetta is a good "manager," i'm told. that's not wholly a bad thing. i anticipate he'll run damage control, ass covering, and various other bureaucratic games for the O admin, as they seek to clean up (without really cleaning up) bush's various nightmares and messes. i'm less and less interested in CIA every day, as i think their heyday as "chief spooks" has come and gone.
Hi CD!
How about some more gardening to go with MF's post?
And let me ask the obvious question:
If they CIA's heyday as chief spooks is over, who's replaced them? Has the function been privatized?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
and fwiw: difi is opposed to panetta
no link, just read it a while ago elsewhere. so there's that. her hubby has been deep in MIC contracting for a while, and she's part of that 'gang of 8' pro torture element in the senate, so if she doesn't like him, it can be all bad.
damn you and your instant gtma, lambert
i swear, it's like you've got a little snoop in my haid, or something. i hate psychics who post right before i do, durnit.
waves at LB who also has mail
i will soon post what you really want:
seed exchange
and
LONDON!!!
but also: museums. which are much more interesting than just shots of a city we'd all really like to live in, should we be fortunate enough.
heh. how jealous are you that i got to party with Avedon? she's a hoot. you have no idea how much.
'I don't want to hear anything out of the CIA. Make it go away."
Foreign Policy -- 00-Huh? Former intel officials react to Panetta CIA pick --
(more reaction there -- note who is named and who's anonymous, and who/what they're connected to, too)
So a bunch of torture apologists have problems with Panetta
And that's bad why?
Obama, with Panetta, has made a slightly less rotten choice among the many, many worse choices that could be made; re-appointing Hayden, for example, or somebody like Harmon. I don't see why that's so hard to accept. We're the reality-based community, aren 't we?
And I'd rather frame this is being against torture and hold them to it going forward, then get into the "whatever Obama does is teh suxx0r" mode. Eh?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
2% Less Evil, Eh?
You're awfully easy to please, these days. I actually like (or harbor no ill-will towards) Panetta as a person. But, simply putting down a no-torture require as the only reason to settle for him is awfully weak tea. How I take, it's as if asking for someone with some experience plus someone against torture would be seen as searching for a unicorn, with you.
I'm not sure about the others, but I can tell you that I'm not against Panetta simply because Obama picked him. I'd hope that you're not inching towards "he hasn't even done anything yet", because there is a hint of that, here. I'd also hope that asking that your CIA head had some experience in the intelligence field wouldn't be seen as asking for too much.
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
exactly--we would never be hired in fields we had no
experience in--let alone for such powerful positions--why should these people get such powerful jobs?
your standards are lower than low, lambert.
What a silly argument
amberglow:
Managers get hired all the time in fields they don't have expertise in.
I have yet to hear a plausible alternative nominee from you, either. Who's the good nominee not implicated in torture? DiFi? Not.
If everything Obama does is wrong, then you have no credibility to call him out when he really fucks up -- as he did with FISA, the bailout, and will again. It's not my standards for politicians that are the issue here, amberglow, but your standards for what you post.
Last I checked, the primaries were over. The wrong guy won, with tactics we know all too well, and people I know are in danger of getting seriously fucked because of that. That doesn't alter the reality that Obama will shortly be in office, and in power. We'd better get to know the guy and build a good model of him, for our own sanity and survival. That includes strong points and weak points. Let's not confuse incessant nattering with critical thinking, shall we? Bringing DiFi -- for pity's sake -- into the fray as ammo against the Panetta choice is exactly the kind of "any stick to beat a dog" argumentation that the OFB
used against Hillary in the primaries. Same style of thought. Purely instrumental, no intellectual integrity at all. Let's elevate our game, shall we?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
intellectual integrity means not grasping at straws--
and people hired for jobs they have no expertise in --and in fields they don't know --most often don't do a good job.
and Government agencies are not like a CEO from WalMart going to Hewlett-Packard or vice versa. Or even a Wall St guy going to the Fed -- there they at least have relevant experience.
Panetta and many others of Obama's picks don't have the relevant expertise for the job they've been hired to do. It's fact. Put Panetta at CBO or something purely administrative -- or something domestic. Put Clinton at Health instead of State. Put most of them in different -- and most importantly -- more relevant --slots, and i wouldn't be complaining.
You and many others are using speeches and op-eds as if that counts as experience. it doesn't. and looking at who would have been worse. that's not good enough. It's like when they said Obama "running his campaign" was relevant experience. It's not.
Because he sat in on PDBs doesn't mean he helped create them. Because he ran the WH doesn't mean he had any say in how the CIA was run.
what Panetta says here about Solis Doyle is what's now
being said about him --
Panetta's Lament: They Had No Plan
Plus, he's going to be working very closely with State -- is he still close with Hillary now? Was he when they were both in the WH?
This Einhorn guy -- and Anthony Lake too -- sounds like they'd have been better picks too, btw -- Best And Brightest Of Clinton Hands Seek Obama Treaty: Panetta Suggests Barack Import Hillary ‘Oomph’To His Foreign Team
First DiFi, then Pattti Solis Doyle?
Great to see that the alternative to Panetta I repeatedly asked for was so obvious -- "This Einhorn guy." How could I have missed that?
Any stick to beat a dog, amberglow. It's getting ridiculous. Have you been taking lessons from bringiton?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
those are DiFi's -- and Panetta's words --
and i found them relevant to him and to the job -- and to how ppl are rationalizing and qualifying his fitness for it. (a la you -- here)
not any stick to beat a dog -- unless your talk of "intellectual integrity" in the same breath as this is is the "dog" --
Critical thinking and intellectual integrity would require assessment of things and people and actions independent of building "a good model" -- and would be consistent and applicable to all government appointees/ positions/ and actions at all times.
Unless all your "bailout" posts are also "incessant nattering"? You don't have a need to "build a good model" there, I notice. Or on Health care? Or on multiple other govt things.
over and over for the past 2 years speeches and/or other non-related things have been used as some indication -- and proof -- of fitness and qualification for vitally important jobs -- that's not good enough, nor is it helpful in achieving progress.
Readers can judge
I have no more time to waste on this crap. Elevate your game.
UPDATE In fact, in your comments on health care and especially the bailout, you're just making stuff up. I don't know how else to put it.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
"Any stick to beat a dog"
Nice.
Via Norman Douglas, "South Wind"
Free translation in this context: Anything to win (as, for example, the OFB
recycling Vince Foster against Hillary -- or amberglow's comment on bailout above). I used to be that way, until I realized the opportunity cost of unlimited engagement are too great. Now, when I see the purely tactical and instrumental overwhelm everything else, I call bullshit and withdraw).
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Awfully testy, and for what?
Really, Amberglow and myself simply said that Panetta's skill suit would be a better fit somewhere else in the administration. Your reaction was not warranted, especially the pissy "you pick some better" response. This was hardly a knee-jerk reaction simply because Obama picked him. We haven't change. You have, obviously with your comprimising talk of "realism" and arguments that verge on wanting to use "pragamatic" and "practical".
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
Stupid arguments make me testy
YMMV. And, obviously, does.
Arguments that shift make me testy, too. Upthread, you wrote:
Now, by the time I've dealt with the rest of the nonsense, DiFi, and the rest of it, you've turned that into:
Your translation English-to-English skills must be a lot better than mine, I must say.
Nice work with "verging on," though. All I said is that Panetta was better than many possible alternatives, for reasons stated. In that context, it seems entirely reasonable to challenge for a better alternative. What do I get? "This Einhorn guy."* Case closed. Any stick to beat a dog, as I said. Obama can't do anything right, ever, with you guys, and so when the time comes to call him out when he does really, really wrong -- as he just did, with the Surgeon General, which I just called him on -- you've got no credibility. Nor does the blog. Wrong tactically; wrong in principle. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
NOTE * And, to be fair, Tony Lake. Failed once, in a nomination for the same post, so highly unlikely.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Indeed it does
Your point?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
I'm highlighting that quote because I want it on the record
and right out front, so I can call bullshit later if he drops from the standard.
And if comparing Panetta favorably to Brennan -- or any other out-and-out torturer -- is "easy to please," then so be it. I guess I'll just have to live with the shame (snark). As I keep saying, things might have been a good deal worse -- as they were with Brennan, until the outcry. Obama's a politician like any other -- and when he makes a better choice than he could have made, I'm going to say so. If you want a blog where Obama can't ever do anything right, ever-- there are others out there.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Panetta developed the program for
balancing the budget during Bill Clinton's administration. I always thought he organized the Clinton staff as Chief of Staff.
When living in CA, I campaigned hard for Panetta in in '76 run for congress. I thought of him as a very respectable liberal although I found out later that he was a centrist. I was a young college student then....didn't even know what a centrist was.
In re to Feinstein, I also interviewed her for the college newspaper. She was a role model for young women being so visible as the first female elected to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. However, she stated that she had gone as far as possible as a woman in politics. Then Milk and Moscone were assassinated and being President of the Board, she officially became Mayor of San Francisco.
Then to now.
DiFi is sorta a living example of what they say about aging
and people getting more conservative.
or maybe it's just decades of hobnobbing with the rich and connected? she dropped all her ideals to become a permanent DC fixture? (which is what we're seeing Obama do -- if he actually had them to begin with, that is. Maybe she didn't either?)
No, DiFi is a living example of a corrupt process
The gang of eight was a corrupt process and anti-Constitutional process whereby IMNSHO all the top Congressional Dems got themselves thoroughly implicated in Bush's crimes, which is why they're so reluctant to investigate them.
That's one reason why Panetta is 2% less evil, and it's also a reason why DiFi and Jello Jay have "concerns" about him.
The issue has nothing to do with DiFi's age at all. Can we elevate our game here, instead of resorting to age-ism?
No, there's no actual outcome from any of this yet. My only claim, throughout, has been that Panetta was better than any serious proposed alternative -- including "that Einhorn guy" that nobody'd ever heard of until this very moment.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Jello Jay also objects to Panetta
Typical clear statement:
Who does he want, someone from Mossad?
they could have picked Rahm then!
; >
Yeah, let's make this another I/P thread.
Because too much is never enough.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
Privatization of intelligence
First, it is truly surprising to know that Obama picked someone who's unequivocally against torture in addition to actually being competent in running a bureaucracy. Seriously. Here's the case for Panetta by Tim Roemer. He addresses the criticism that Panetta doesn't have the adequate intelligence background to run the agency:
I wonder though: what about the privatization of our intelligence? Torture and other abuses of power must be stopped, but to do so and address other national security concerns I feel we must also put an end to this huge corrupting influence that has already proven disastrous during the Bush years:
From the Times op-ed:
I'm curious if there's even a hint that CIA reform is possible under Panetta. I'm guessing, "No," but still I wonder if he'll be asked about it.
along the private/contracting lines --
what about multi-year contracts that they've already made? I can't imagine they haven't locked in that kind of thing -- and it's probably all classified too.
and what about oversight for all of that?
Panetta never pushed back even once to my knowledge while working for Clinton -- and he was never on the House Intel Committee either.
i'd rather see a Waxman-type, if we're only getting an administrator.
I think it goes beyond Panetta
Considering that he's already staked a rather unapologetic stance on torture, I don't see why he wouldn't be opposed to rolling back the outsourcing of intelligence, a hotbed of abuse and criminality. But considering that corporations already have our very democracy in a headlock, I don't see how Panetta or just about anyone else could do it on their own (That's what I meant when I said that I don't see reform on this issue under Panetta). Unless they had a president and political establishment ready to back them against the corporate right-wing and its Village
. And I don't see that.
2% less evil redux
Davidson, you write:
The President and the political establishment are the Village
, along wth the corporate right wing and the creatures of the press. All in all, a few thousand people at the top of the greasy pole.
Like everything else, there are gradations, and I suppose I'd rather have a well-regarded Village
elder running the CIA than the Village
's batshit insane junk yard owner (for example)... But it's still the village.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
A political establishment
I didn't say the political establishment. With regards to significant, systemic reform, I was thinking about what it took to roll back the gilded age and the powers that be: FDR leading the charge with an independent power base and some political leaders (allies) right behind him. That's what I meant by "a president and political establishment." Perhaps I should have used a different phrase.
As for Panetta, I don't know what to think of him. Good manager? Sure. Able to tackle much-needed CIA reform or provide strong intelligence leadership? I have no idea. Sen. Feingold's approval of him is good, but I'm still feeling unconvinced either way. Probably because I'm still confused about Obama.
First, his FISA vote and now Panetta? Seems like zig then zag with him.