Could we change the world with three state conventions?

Thirty five states have ratified the Equal Rights Amendment. This scary thing, which the conservatives of the day accused Jimmy Carter of trying to destroy the US with (Phyllis Schlafly, IIRC, said it would mean co-ed restrooms, and that would be the end of civilization) reads in whole as follows:

Section 1.
Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.
Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

Two years is a long time to wait, but if I read that thing right, it would mean many changes.
For one thing it would put a stop to the "pro-life" infantilization of women by legislation such as the Texas state law, "Women's Right To Know". Similarly, it would make wage discrimination illegal. Equally, it would make discrimination in hiring, retention, training, and promotion illegal -- in the US armed services and any civilian business operating in the US.

And while I'm not a constitutional scholar, I think it would probably make same-sex marriage a right protected under the US Constitution. I have a feeling that "on account of sex" might very well be the key phrase, though.

So what we need is to get this on the ballot in three states and have it pass.

The 15 states whose legislatures have not ratified the Equal Rights Amendment are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, and Virginia.

My bet would be that the two Carolinas and Virginia would be most amenable to ratification, but since i don't live there (and since Texas did ratify it) I can't speak to the scope of action needed.

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Ahem, Sarah

Having just gotten back in your good graces...

The ERA passed by the 35 states you refer to has expired, as of June 30, 1982. A new ERA will require passage by House and Senate plus ratification by 38 states (or through a convention of the states, but that's much less likely). Not to dissuade, but it will require a total do-over.

Guess I should ah, amend this comment to make clear that I've read through the argument for reviving the earlier ERA effort from the dead, and I don't buy it. I don't think the SCOTUS will either. It might have had a chance if the deadline hadn't already been extended once (before it expired) but a plain reading of the legislative history is that Congress clearly intended the amendment to be passed within a certain time frame and confirmed that intent by legislating an extension; when that didn't happen the life went out of it. The Madison amendment doesn't bear, there was no deadline involved.

Hmm. Well, I thought it sounded too easy

but it sure looked like a good idea.

So enlighten me -- COULD the ERA put a stop to the pro/anti Roe and the marriage equality hassles we're currently undergoing? Because if the answer to either of those, or both, is yes, then the way to find out for sure what kind of America we live in -- one that cares about people, or one that is already a right-wing delusion -- is to try to get the ERA revived, isn't it?


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Not Sure It Works for Equal Marriage or Even Abortion

Women are not discriminated against in relation to men in terms of marriage. Both sexes are treated the same. They can each marry the opposite sex. Men and women are treated "equally" in that both gay men and lesbians are discriminated against equally.

Abortion is a closer call. Part of the problem there is that the right to an abortion has to do with the right to control one's body or the right to privacy and is not currently grounded in notions of sex equality (Justice Ginsburg I believe has argued that it should also be based on equal protection for women). So the issue would be whether abortion restrictions treat women differently than men. Of course, they do. But not all of that is bad - men currently have very limited say in abortion decisions. What if that were deemed to be an unequal treatment for them under the ERA language? They're discriminated against by not getting a say. And it would be totally keeping with my recent experience that an amendment designed to help women would be used to punish them and give men even more power. That seems to be how it works these days (and not just for women).

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. " - Eleanor Roosevelt

hard to know

Could cut both ways. If there is no discrimination based on sex, I can foresee a battle to mandate equal voice over an abortion decision for both the, ah, shall we say sperm donor as well as the woman. Another round of lawsuits and laws challenging the use of morning-after pills would also loom.

Regards same-sex marriage, it might strengthen the argument but I think there's already a decent argument to make in light of the US Constitutional mandate of interstate full faith and credit especially if CA gets our Prop 8 business taken care of. Massachusetts has a state constitutional provision left over from the bad old anti-mesegination days that prohibits out-of-state couples coming there to be married if their home state would forbid the union. CA doesn't have that exclusion, so all marriages in CA would have to be recognized by all other states. We would happily reap the financial reward of being the Gay Marriage destination for the whole country; I can see the hot pink 747 charter flights now.

Didn't mean to be all downer about the ERA. If this outfit is serious, they need to go at it the other way around by getting Congress to do up front what they'd have to do eventually - extend or abolish the deadline. Then file suit to challenge and chase it up the courts to SCOTUS to see what the decision would be. If the SCOTUS says no go that will save a lot of money and effort pushing on the state level, that would ultimately be for no good. If SCOTUS says yes, then there would be a real impetus to press for those three more states.

Wihout knowing in advance that the effort would be worthwhile, I can't see any more states being willing to put out the effort and expense to achieve ratification.

Slight correction: Mass. repealed old law

this past summer. (yaay!)

Reasonable men adapt themselves to their environment; unreasonable men try to adapt their environment to themselves. Thus all progress is the result of the efforts of unreasonable men. -- George Bernard Shaw

Good news, thx Valhalla for the update

Missed that, must have been the time difference.

Figures ... look how well it did for

feral equine populations.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

gaiis and trannies will have "equal" right before wimmin

just my not so humble O. sorry, but that was a magical moment i was too young to enjoy and participate in. "feminism" of that wave is effectively dead in this country. young women have very little interest in any sort of political agigtation of the form you describe, in my experience. the gay community, which is as lazy as can be in terms of politics, is much more involved.

hey, look whose head stopped pounding

hopefully. Feeling any better?

heh, yes. sleep, guiness, and the HOA meeting are the cure, BIO

or so it seems.

feel free to come by and give me a massage, tho. it's nice and cold here, it'll man you up to do so. or something. ;-)

Frigid is the word you're looking for

at those temps all my manly bits disappear. Seriously. Like inverted. Screaming.

Here in Zone 1A++ it was 80F yesterday, 72 today, 70's and upper 60s for the whole next week. My camellias have bloomed, they think it is March already.

All congresscritters are liars, then, CD?

Because, trust me, all US treaties are lies.
Starting with any one that says "as long as the grass shall grow and the ____________ river shall flow," and ending with any one signed in the last eight years.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

If We Lived in a Righteous Nation

Instead of Dude Nation or Obama Nation, take your pick, the ERA would've been passed long ago, as well as CEDAW, the global gag directive repealed, and all the governmental offices looking after women's interests that were done away with by W stands for Women, reinstated. We don't live in a righteous nation, but today maybe we got on the path towards a world where women aren't instinctively and systematically made invisible - Hillary did us proud at the SOS confirmation hearings:

Our foreign policy must reflect our deep commitment to the cause of making human rights a reality for millions of oppressed people around the world. Of particular concern to me is the plight of women and girls, who comprise the majority of the world’s unhealthy, unschooled, unfed, and unpaid. If half of the world’s population remains vulnerable to economic, political, legal, and social marginalization, our hope of advancing democracy and prosperity will remain in serious jeopardy. We still have a long way to go and the United States must remain an unambiguous and unequivocal voice in support of women’s rights in every country, every region, on every continent.

And in a Q&A exchange with Barbara Boxer:

I want to pledge to you that as Secretary of State, I view these issues as central to our foreign policy. Not as adjunct or auxiliary, or in any way lesser than all of the other issues we have to confront. I too have followed the stories that are exemplified by the pictures that you held up. I mean, it is heartbreaking beyond words that, you know, young girls are attacked on their way to school by Taliban sympathizers and members who do not want young women to be educated. It’s not complicated! They want to maintain an attitude that keeps women — as I said in my testimony — unhealthy, unfed, uneducated and this is something that results all too often in violence against these young women, both within their families and from the outside.

This is not culture. This is not custom. This is criminal. And it will be my hope to persuade more government — as I have attempted to do since I spoke at Beijing on these issues, you know, 13 and some years ago — that we cannot have a free, prosperous, peaceful, progressive world if women are treated in such a discriminatory and violent way. I’ve also read closely Nick Kristof’s articles, in the last months and especially the last weeks, the young women that he has both rescued from prostitution, and met, who have been enslaved and abused, tortured in every way– physically, emotionally, morally– and I take very seriously the function of the State department to lead our government through the Office on Human Trafficking, to do all that we can to end this modern form of slavery. We have sex slavery, we have wage slavery, and it is primarily a slavery of girls and women. So I look also forward, Senator, to reviewing your legislation and working with you as a continuing partnership on behalf of these issues we care so much about.

So we’re going to have a very active office on trafficking, we’re going to be speaking out consistently and strongly against discrimination and oppression of women, and slavery in particular. Because I think that is not only in keeping with American values, as we all recognize, but American national security interests as well.

It's about damn time already that someone recognized half the human race as worthwhile - in public, and on the Senate floor.

Reconciling this clearly proper and progressive position

on women's rights with the strong (and understandable) desire to get the hell out of Afghanistan will make for some interesting moral judgments.

We are knee-deep in that Big Muddy already; now "This is not culture. This is not custom. This is criminal." What to do, what to do?

??

you're saying that the way to improve the plight of women living in afghanistan is for us to remain at war with the taliban?

Beats me

what do you think? Will women's status there be better or worse if we stay or if we leave? Seems that Hillary was saying we have a moral responsibility to see to the welfare of women in Afghanistan (that was the specific issue at hand; in past she's used my preferred framing of women having equal human rights). Fair enough; how do we do that and not have a military presence?

There are many other Afghan issues for us, none clean and simple in my view, but this is one that does need sorting and it has broad applications in other geopolitical arenas. I look forward to your thoughts.

first reaction -- not by means of the sword only, but

by means of the pen, the scroll, and the coin, bringiton.

a people subjugated cannot be freed unless they have education and commerce to support them after the revolution -- this is how the Taliban got back into power. The US knocked them down but not out and did NOTHING to relieve the suffering they created while in power, nor during their 'intifadeh' against the US.

The Taleban promotes a cruelty against women the like of which we have not yet seen much here in the US (altho in some enclaves of immigrants, it appears that such things as female genital mutilation and honor killings are occurring). It will only spread if it is not stamped out, as a range fire spreads in dry grass and drives everything before it to exhaustion and death.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

sounds complicated and protracted, Sarah,

and expensive and probably bloody.

I don't claim at all to know what to do about Afghanistan. If there is good news, it is that now is not 30 years ago and we are not the Russians. After that, though, things look pretty dark. If we could just walk away I'd be all for it, but there is the matter of what happens to the women when the Taliban take over again and IIRC there was considerable complaint about them on the Left the last time they were in power.

And then there's the thing about Ossama Whatshisname who would once again have a very large safe haven from which to operate. And the nuclear weapons of Pakistan, mounted on ICBMs, and the possibility of a strengthened Islamist movement taking control of the Pakistani government and how that conjunction might work out to our detriment.

If Hillary Clinton as SoS actually believes the Taliban's treatment of women is something we as a nation have a moral obligation to prevent, that is a bold statement and gives me some pause. Not arguing against it, but wondering just how we pull it off without y'know lots of guns and bombs and that kind of stuff, because the Taliban will be shooting at us and probably our troops will want to be able to shoot back. A lot.

That plus the people we have as allies are all criminals and completely untrustworthy, and the third parties we used to have as allies and may now want to have as allies again, the warlords, are just as gender oppressive as the Taliban and just as corrupt as the Karzai government. Otherwise, pretty straightforward.

Please flesh out your thoughts beyond that first sentence, because I certainly agree with you about goals but I’m a little vague on the details of implementation.

well, you can't just kill all the Taleban men ...

although by preference I'd like to say we can give it a hell of a try.

But HRC has evolved beyond that, I'm pretty sure, and so should those of us who think she's got her head on straight. Hence the comment that not by the sword only, but also by the pen, the scroll and the coin.

Baby steps. The pen creates laws protecting women (and kids). The scroll spreads those laws (and incidentally the pen and scroll spread other notions). The coin rewards those who obey or punishes those who don't -- depending on if it's a reward or a penalty.

First you get the women to think of themselves as humans, who deserve safety and care.

This is hard in a world where 99.9 percent of the other half the population doesn't think so (else why did the ERA deadline expire?) and a good quarter (Eagle Forum / Concerned Women For America / Pro-Life women / damn near any 'pietous' woman in any evangelical or conservative church) of the half they're biologically identified as being "in" agrees. So yes, it isn't gonna happen overnight. But it can be made to happen. Women gotta be part of it, just like gays and blacks and Hispanics and Asians; just like atheists and agnostics, Buddhists and Catholics, Confucians and Protestants. But you can do it if you work hard enough at it.

That's where the pen and scroll (and some of the coin) come in. Teaching. Legislating. Enforcing. Protecting. Change the culture. Raise the next generation to think instead of being led by the nose-ring of religion.

Then you get them to think of themselves as capable, and empowered to support themselves. That's where the coin (and the pen and scroll, and yeah, the sword to some extent, because once you're not somebody else's chattel you have the right if not the obligation to defend yourself as your own property, at the very least, and if you have the gall to go into business for yourself you damn sure better be able to hold off the thieves and the scum who'll try to cave your head in because you're making an income that doesn't depend on spreading your legs for their pleasure or profit) comes in much more majorly -- microloans is just one example.

Can't remember offhand where, but in some country I first heard of after the Tsunami, a group of women got a microloan and bought, like, two cellphones and a year's international service, and then set up a pay-to-yak service of their own with it -- and first thing you know they're out of debt and expanding. Other such success stories involve women who got livestock from Heifer Project or microloans for sewing machines (maybe even treadle-powered ones) in rural villages in South America and Southeast Asia, and all of a sudden their kids weren't starving to death one after another anymore.

Very small steps, yeah. TIme-consuming. Expensive. Probably bloody.

Don't see any help for the costs, if we're going to end up with the benefits.

Speaking of that hell of a try -- if it were up to me it wouldn't be just the Taleban men. It'd be the janjaweed and the "prophets" of the FLDS and every paedophile, rapist,and torturer on the planet, and if the entire adult membership of the Westboro Baptist "Church" wandered through hostile gunsights I reckon my conscience would be clear.

Not so much with the liberty, equality and brotherhood. Way more with the liberty, equality, and humanity.

Favreau of the frathouse is merely a symbolic amateur in the auteur of piggery, and I'm pretty sure he'll get his comeuppance in style, if not in public.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

OK, so first thing we kill all the men

On reflection, I’m sure you can see why this approach might be less than universally popular. Oh, and I'm guessing you've had your full 330 mg compliment of caffeine already today.

The question for me is whether or not we can make a positive difference by our continued presence there, and if so then by how much and is it worth the cost (lives, treasure, time) versus what we might accomplish with the same expenditure elsewhere.

Sounds a bit cold, that statement, but there you are; we have a limited capacity for action, and we should leverage that action in a way that brings the greatest benefit - with benefit to Americans having a considerable degree of priority over benefit to non-Americans, in the same self-serving way that others consider their dealings with us.

What then about Afghanistan? If the primary reason we are there is to liberate the women, how much time and what cost are we willing to invest and what is the likelihood of what level of success? Are there other objectives, such as squeezing the Taliban and their al Qaeda allies between Western forces on one side and the newly resolved Pakistani forces on the other until they are crushed, also worthwhile? Can the one cause provide long-term, sustainable benefits for the other? Can they be seen as not just compatible objectives but synergistic, and does that shift the cost/benefit calculation? Or is it all folly, and no matter what we do Afghanistan will remain what it has always been and our presence there is futile? Should we instead let the Muslim world sort itself out and tend to our own problems, trusting that even if radical Islamists get the bomb either MAD will keep us safe or our own overwhelming nuclear weapons superiority will provide an ultimate solution if one is needed?

Afghanistan is not a simple problem, and it will take some time and considerable wisdom to sort out what to do - or rather what to try - next. Those who call for immediate withdrawal need to give more thought to consequence than it appears to me they are, and those who are calling simply for more military power, more boots on the ground, also need to broaden their horizons. Some of Hillary's rhetoric sounds promising, but other parts sound to me like merely substituting one morality-based Crusade for another and I don't use that term lightly or without substantial trepidation.

I don't know what to do in Afghanistan. I don't think anyone else does either.

I think it's partly party line

Obama spent the entire election stressing that Afghanistan is the "good war". You and I know it's horseshit, that it is unsolvable. But since Obama has said that we are going to redouble our efforts there, Clinton has to toe that, since she works for him. She is just going to do the best she can, to do something about the plight of women, since we are already going to be there.

And I wouldn't suggest we kill all the men, we should leave enough to continue procreation, though you should remain in harems. And we could be like the Rapture, but opposite. All little boys under the age of 10 can stay, since they can be trained.

He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
- Sir William Drummond

immediate withdrawal

if i advocate for it, what consequences do you think i'm overlooking?

hipparchia, I think you're overlooking

the return of women and children to the status of property and the resurgence of the Taleban, the people who blew up those 500-year-old statues of Buddha.

Y'know, I'm not for giving in to the bad guys just because they're mean.

I'm for making it harder for them to thrive in the world, just because I think they suck.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

schools, microloans,

schools, microloans, heifers, sewing machines... not really going to flourish in war conditions.

my guess: we're going to stay there however long it takes to make afghanistan safe for oil [or is it natural gas there? i forget] but with hillary out front fighting for them, afghan women maybe will end up with the relative freedom of iranian women, rather than the repression of saudi women. unless of course, it all turns into another vietnam.

very easy to lead liberals around by the nose this way. anything the bad guys want to do can be hidden behind a good-guy front.

another guess: if we left now, before we get around to turning afghanistan into another oil-producing state, we'd have a better chance of actually helping the women and children, but i admit it's probably better odds by only a tiny margin.

confession: in the depths of my tiny little black heart, i really really like splashy's idea the best.

hipparchia, the thing about war is

it goes on forever unless somebody either wins or gives up.

Oil, gas ... pasture land ... somebody somewhere's always gonna wanna fight about something.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

that's what i'm saying. how

that's what i'm saying.

how are we gonna win? drop a nuke or two? not gonna happen [or at least i sincerely hope we don't resort to that]. what are the chances of us winning short of that? i think they're somewhere between none and snowball-in-hell. i don't have a problem with rolling over and crying uncle here.

Nor will they flourish for women

under the restrictive, horrendous version of Sharia practiced in most of Afghanistan - all of Afghanistan, if the Taliban take over again.

I don't have the natural gas numbers in my head but Afghan oil reserves are trivial, about 1.5 billion barrels recoverable (est.) compared to 350 billion barrels (est.) in Iraq. I doubt the natural gas reserves are much more significant.

h: another guess: if we left now, before we get around to turning afghanistan into another oil-producing state, we'd have a better chance of actually helping the women and children, but i admit it's probably better odds by only a tiny margin.

A better chance of helping if we left? Please explain the mechanics supporting that claim.

if we can't get iraq all to

if we can't get iraq all to ourselves, we could always settle for afghanistan and environs. and if we can't quite control either one, at least we can muck things up enough to keep china and russia from getting too much of it.

afghanistan, yeah, now there's an easily conquered country. oh wait, now that we're gonna [kinda sorta maybe over the next coupla years] withdraw from iraq, we'll have the resources to do the job right this time.

granted, europe and japan recovered [or perhaps modernized is a better word] a lot faster after two world wars than iran and cuba and iraq after our various non-war sanctions, but overall these aren't good precedents to use as justification for righteous wars.

oh yeah... and we can't even put a measly women are people too amendment in our own constitution here at home.

You're baiting me, hipparchia

But I'll play along, 'cause I'm such a sweetie.

Here, the fate of women in Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Here, the fate of women in Afghanistan without the Taliban.

It is this pervasive societal pattern of behavior that Hillary was talking about, calling it "criminal." Of course, in Afghan society it is not criminal; it is everyday normal.

Other consequences include, as I wrote, greater freedom of movement and safety for al Qaeda and their militant Islamist associates. This means, for instance, that they will be better able to move against American interests including more lethal attacks like those of the 90s and 9/11/01. Additionally, militant Islamists will have a much larger safe haven from which to attack the government of Pakistan, whose new president seems quite serious about tracking them down and puting them out of business. Should they succeed in overthrowing Pakistan's government, they will have nuclear weapons. For me, that is a worry.

ackshully i wasn't [not this time anyway]

but i was convinced you were baiting me.

i have to admit, i do wonder if some of those truly radical islamists might possibly be crazy enough to use nuclear weapons if they got their hands on them. can't blame you for worrying about that. otoh, crazies, much like bleeding heart liberals, make good fronts for the real bad guys, who are usually sane and cold and calculating, even if they're not always competent.

i care about afghan women, you care about afghan women, hillary cares about afghan women, correnteans all probably care about afghan women, but i'll believe american politicos care about women when we invade all of africa.

i'm not at all convinced that war against the taliban is the best way to keep al qaeda from blowing us up. as for the rest of our 'american interests' yeah, that's been a hugely successful ccc/wpa [but with bombs!] and a lot of people who would otherwise have been stuck all their lives in the piney woods of lower alabama are now world travelers instead.

but we could have done all that with some kind of peace corps effort. probably could have saved a lot of women and children while we were at it too.

oh, and commies are gonna overrun the world if we don't stay the course in vietnam.

spilt milk

Educational, insofar as understanding something about how the current mess was created, and somewhat constraining in terms of needing some amount of cleaning up if we are at all moral, but the problems we face in Afghanistan going forward are to a large degree independent of the mistakes made in the past.

Our choices now need to be smarter than the ones made by BushCo. I'm suggesting that the Progressive path lies along coming up with positive solutions to go with the "Bad Obama, Bad Bad Bad!" chorus that seems to follow his every move. Correctives are fine, as far as they go; constructive correctives are what we need to succeed, and the right place IMHO is to define what "succeed" means for Afghanistan.

I'm all ears on this one, absolutely in earnest, no baiting involved, but no it won't do to call for teleportation of all the Afghan women into Kansas - or the Florida Panhandle. Practical magic only, please.

Speaking of crazies, it was that Truman fellah who dropped the Big One - twice - and he seemed pretty sane. I'm not convinced it would take a whole lot of crazy for it to happen again, just enough.

Regards Africa, no need to worry; if we don't get started sorting things there pretty quick, they'll be coming for us in 20 years, in droves. The coming catastrophy in Africa will in all probability dwarf our current political problems.

And I'll be convinced that our politicos care about women - and fetuses - when we have universal no-charge perinatal health care.

just enough crazy

indeed.

i admit i'm not full of good ideas for afghanistan right at the moment, but that's probably because i haven't been keeping up with frenchdoc enough lately.

meanwhile, when all you have is guns and tanks and nukes and white phosphorus and death rays, every problem looks like _____ [a la when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail]. until you can prove to me that we've run out of options, i reject out of hand the mindset that we're stuck with continuing bush and cheney and rumsfeld et al's wet dream.

africa? i'm guessing we won't have to worry about them, seeing as how the ptb have for very many years now been twiddling their thumbs and overlooking darfur and the congo and the hutus and tutsis and have i forgotten anybody? probably.

i'm convinced the politicos will never care about women, but i don't really care about that as long as they can be maneuvered into giving us universal no-charge life-long health care for everybody, citizen or not.

confession: i am never going to care about fetuses. i care only about the women who have them, and about the children who result from them.

certainly it isn't either/or

Complex problems often require complex approaches to even begin to suss out a solution, and that's where I think the situation is now. We don't know what questions to ask, much less what the answers might be.

I'm not sure it is wise to label this or that approach as being "Bush/Cheney" and therefor inherently bad. If we are going to stay in-country, we will have to maintain a military presence simply because it is a militant society; every male is armed, and weapons are as common and frequently used as they were in our own wild west - and in our own current urban centers. It will be a great struggle, because the changes we are apparently going to seek (according to Wish-She-Was-President Hillary Clinton, mind you) are generational changes and they will require decades to achieve - if even then.

On the other hand, we could just say screw it and march out. If that is the choice, we need to be very aware of the consequences and have a plan to deal with them. The worst choice, I think, would be to walk away and deny that doing so will have any consequence for us. It may be a while in coming, but when it does they may be more horrific than what we would reap by staying.

Another 2% less evil choice, it looks like.

I was thinking of helping all the women and children to leave

To live in a more hospitable place.

The men will die off after a few decades without women to procreate with.

Of course, they will try to raid other countries for women to abuse.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot." - Albert Einstein

well, actually, not *all* the men

just the unreasonable ones.

You, for instance, are exempt.

W, not so much.

I don't know if anybody will ever know what to do in Afghanistan. I would suggest that we try something DIFFERENT than what the Soviets failed to do, but it's too late for that already (as of, oh, October of 2001, as a matter of fact. Thanks, W.)

My kid probably said this better: "We should start by wiping out all religions."

It would, at the very least, remove a pillar of the temple that justifies a big chunk of the world's wars, tortures, and repressions of "righteous" people against "other" people.

I guess, at the heart of it, that's my problem: people don't recognize that other people are really people, too. Cut us, do we not bleed? etc. notwithstanding.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

"You, for instance, are exempt."

Think I'll have that printed and framed, just in case, since c.f. Aeryl, above, my breeding days are behind me (shhh).

Nahh

Your more than half on our team anyway, we'll leave you to help with harem supervision :D

He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
- Sir William Drummond

aw, c'mon. you know you're not unreasonable,

don't you?


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18

Well, I think

I'm absolutely fabulous, but others may not agree. Apparently I'm at 51/49 with Aeryl, a substantial improvement over my last review, but still pretty precarious. Plus, if I'm going to be in someone's harem I expect to earn my keep; that certificate on the wall may help keep me working and fed.

i think you're absolutely

i think you're absolutely fabulous too.

but harems are waaaay too much trouble, and besides, what i really want is someone to clean out the litter boxes and vacuum up all the cat fur.

My solution

would be to skin the cats, but that's probably not going to be seen as constructive.

My shit-shoveling days are over. The next round will be done by someone else, when its my turn to crap all over the place.

I should write something about cats. Make myself popular; ya never know....

splashy9, talk about wanting a lot for your nickel

that order would be costly in money and blood, I'd bet.
I mean, geez, look what happened with the freaking FLDS right here in Texas last year.

I'm game, but then, my breeding days are behind me, too.

How you gonna convince the women and kids to go?
I mean, geez, look what happened with the freaking FLDS right here in Texas last year.

Ninjas. That's what we need. And a boatload of really big troop-moving helicopters. Plus something like ... tear gas, only that puts people to sleep instead of making them helpless and pissed off at the same time.

Kidnapping, or rescuing? I guess it depends on which side of the line you're standing when the question arises, eh?
I mean, geez, look what happened with the freaking FLDS right here in Texas last year.

'Cause, yeah. Eventually the guys will die out -- and raids to get more women to abuse will help that process along, in some cases.


We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

1 John 4:18