Really steering into the bittercling topic.

So much for all the W.O.R.M. about how he supposedly misspoke.

Q: Some say you said exactly what your mean. Can you understand why they were offended.

OBAMA: … The point I was making… When they feel like Washington is not listening…. politically they end up focusing on things that are constant…. Wedge issues take prominence… Issues exploited .

HILLARY: Grand daughter of a factory worker from Scranton… Worked in the factories… Don’t think they “cling to religion” when DC is not listening. Misunderstand role of religion and faith. And people don’t “cling” hunting and guns either… I just don’t believe that’s how people live their lives. Doesn’t mean people aren’t frustrated. I can see why people are taken aback. What’s important is that we all listen and respect… Despite frustration poeple are resilient.. waiting for leadership….

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

HILLARY: Yes, but I can do better.

OBAMA: … She’s said I’m elitist and condescending… I’m a person of faith… I’ve reached out to religion… And gun owners… Problem is that you take one statement and beat it to death… I understand that, it’s politics… “Should I be at home baking cookies” and I said “That’s not how she is” [ouch!] She’s larned the wrong lesson and she’s adopting the same tactics. Am peple want us to focus on policy.

HILLARY [can’t wait] My comments were about your remarks. It wasn’t just me. It was people who heard them [she’s right] Obviously, what’s important is our records … What I take is my passion for empowering people. It’s important that starts from a basis of respect and connection.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

“Hillary campaigns like a Republican?”

He’s never campaigned against a real Republican. And Alan Keyes definitely doesn’t count.

Am peple want us to fcus on policy.

ROTFLMFAO!!

He needs to get with his campaign people, they’re on the wrong message!

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

HILLARY: … My city, New York … [Wright remarks] “intolerable” …

OBAMA: 1. Wasn’t aware 2. Church is a communit that extends beyond the pastor 23. Unless we can bridge divides we can’t accomplish anything… My whole life embodies that diversity…

HILLARY: … So many different variations on the explanations that we heard…. What we’ve got to figure out how to bring together to overcome the anger and the bitterness… As leaders we have a choie who we associate with… Farrakhan,,, Give the church bulletin to Hamas [ouch!]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Q: [from public on Bosnia]

HILLARY: I may be a lot of things, but I’m not dumb. I wrote in my book. In a couple of occasions I said a couple of things not in keeping with the what was in my book. I hope you can look over. Clearly I’m proud I went; Clark, I talked to, our soldiers were there, they were in battle gear…. President of Bosnia said it was dangerous… I was not as accurate as I have been in the past. But still, being able to rely on my experience gives me an advantage. I’ll either try to get more sleep. Not what I knew to be the truth. It happens when you talk as much as we do.

OBAMA: The fact of the matter is that both of us are working as hard as we can to make sure we’re deliver a message about what we’re doing to do. Recorded every minute of every day. Senator Clinton deserves the right to make errors. Obsessed with gaffes. [We’re in Clusterfuck mode. Hits income inequality. It’s a mistake to obsess with these errors.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

OBAMA: No other country in which my story is possible [good!] .. [applause]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

OBAMA: He’s an English professor who lives in my neighborhood and did something detestable when I was eight years old… Heck, I know Tom Coburn. [good!] This kind of game, in which anyone I know, somehow their ideas can be attributed to me… The American people are smarter than that.

HILLARY: Obama served on a board with Ayers. It’s a relationship on a board that continued after 9/11 and continued after his comments that were deeply hurtful to the people of New York. Certianly the Republicans will raise it. I iwsh the Republicans would apologize for the last 8 years and not run anyone [applause] People have rummaged through my baggage for years. I will be able to respond to any thing they through.

OBAMA: Clinton [muffed] two members of the Weather Underground. I’ve taken punches and from Clinton.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

but this time he was called on it.

he sucks and is pissed off—he keeps trying to trash it all without responding, but it’s not working, i don’t think. These kinds of questions should have been asked a year ago—but weren’t.

And responding that “Clinton did it too” is not an answer—we all know what the Clintons did and what they are like—what the country needs to know is what he is like and who he surrounds himself with—we can’t go on his record because he doesn’t have one.

is not satisfactory at all—people are questioning him for good reasons.

He can’t win in November—even Dole (who was a terrible candidate, unlike McCain) would beat him.

i think—previous debates put her on the spot all the time.

but he doesn’t have that warm fuzzy thing. I share his dry, sarcastic sense of humor.

He’s the last Republican I respect.

I voted for Clinton though.

————————————————————————
“If I was Vice-President, you know what I’d do?

Vote for me!” - Joe Walsh (channeling Dick Cheney)

Q: No matter what, order troops home?

HILLARY: Yes, we have civilian control I am convinced that it is the best interests of Iraq, American, the military to begin withdrawal in 60 days. Make it clear Iraq no longer blank check. We’ve had other instances where military commanders were opposed to Pres. But this decision must be made, I will make it.

Q: Are you saying that you know better than Petraeus?

A: One thing I am sure of, contining stay lose our military and Iraqi casualities. No way for us to maintain a strong position in the wor;d. We need to pay attention to other problems. Afghan. We don’t know what will happen if we withdraw. We do know if we stay. Iraq not unite. Soldiers fourth deployment. No world standing. Broad issues the Pres must take into account.

Q: You give the same rock hard [!] pledge?

A: The C-i-C sets the mission! The general and the troops carry it out. We’ve had a bad mission set. Time to set a strategy to make the people safer. Always listen to commanders on tactics [is that right?]. Once I have provided the mission [mission vs. tactics, don’t think that’s right] Buck stops with me. AQ getting strong. No strategic reserve.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Q: Attack on Israel from Iran == attack on US.

OBAMA: Whatever it takes to prevent Iran from acquiring nukes. All options on the table.

Q So you would extend our deterrent to Isreal

OBAMA: [Sound goes dead!!}

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

HILLARY: .. Extend security umbrella over Mideast [??] We need to get the rest of the world on our side…

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

he was never smiling, and that 3rd person thing he does—it was like he already had a foot in the grave compared to both the chicken-like Perot, and Clinton, i thought.

McCain is charming, and tries really hard to be, too, even tho some of his jokes are horrendous (bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran—for instance)—Dole was somber and serious all the time, it seemed to me—he had no spark or liveliness.

Always listen to commanders on tactics [is that right?]

Yes, that is right. You have to trust the military to do the job you give them to do. It’s the Commander in Chief’s role to give them the job. Trust me, you haven’t seen the worse that can happen when politics get involved in military decision making.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

That’s why he needed the Viagra:)

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

McCAIN: “All these taxes are under “Hope”…. The audacity is to hope you wn’t notice!

HILLARY: Committed to 250K rate back to 1990s even if economy weak. Won’t hurt eocnomy. We used that tool in the 90s. No tax increase for under $250K. If you go to my website [ouch!] No middle class tax increases of any kind

Q: Same pledge?

OBAMA: I’ll cut them. Offset the payroll tax. Tax break <$75K. Here’s the reason why this is important. Have seen wages flat when costs go up. Pain trickles up. [good] [More regulaion for mortage mess] The rules in Washington written for well connected, trade too. We must change how business is done…

Q: [Laffer curve works for capital gains]

[Stupid press!!]

A: We know that we’ve got to get back to an economy that works for everyone. It was better when the ecnomy lifted everyone. As in the 1990s Typical familiy has $7K income increase. I want to see us tackle the Housing Crisis. Had I been President would have started to deal wtih the problem a year ago. Gov Rendell saw this coming, unlike our current President. Taxes a piece, but we need to invest. I would not raise capital gains above 20. “You know Charlie, I’d have to look to the revenues.” Slams Obama on raising payroll tax.”

A: In Iowa outside of camera range, said would consider it (it was recorded) most don’t make over $100K, will raise on them. Firefighters don’t make $100K. Must stabilize Social Security. Not just a commission.

HILLARY: Totally committed to SS solvent. Had a plan. Bush decided Iraw, tax cuts. When it comes to SS, fiscal resp first and most important. Need to replensih SS. Last crisis 1983, and we did a commission and it worked great.

OBAMA Commissoin raised tax and retirement age. She can’t have it both ways.

HILLARY More progressive ways of raising the money than raising the cap! [Good shot, nicely times]

[AND now the advertisement]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

This is great! For your pleasure, Boomer music…

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

tells the military what to do (make war on country X)

Military leadership (generals and admirals) decide strategy (invade here, bomb there)

Unit leadership (lower officers and NCO’s) decide tactics (unit A assault, B&C provide covering fire, D in reserve and protect the rear & flanks)

————————————————————————
“If I was Vice-President, you know what I’d do?

Vote for me!” - Joe Walsh (channeling Dick Cheney)

[Heck, I believe in the right to bear arms. The black helicopters guys were right!]

Q. Blah blah

HILLARY: WIth Nutter, will be a good partner, will bring back the COPS program, 100K on the street. Reinstate assault weapons ban, as in 90s. Will work for access to Fed info to track illegal guns. Numbers astounded 80% of guns in hands of criminal because gun got there illegal. Rs kept from local law enforcement. Work to bridge this divide, strike right balance. Protect right, but give feeling people safe

Q: What about DC gun law

OBAMA I confess… [don’t know] Believe Constitition confers individual right. Same way local govts can do zoning. Two realities: Tradition of gun ownwership, but also reality in Philly.

Q: Do you favor gun reg, your questionaire your handwritng says support handgun ban.

OBAMA Writing not on that questionaire. Point is get beyond the politics. In Chicago 34 gun deaths of children. Most gun owners say govt can try to stop that.

Q: DC ban

HILLARY: Want to give local communities authority to keep citizens safe. It’s dividing the Bush administration. Cheney, the Foruth branch, has filed a brief! … What I support is sensible regulation consistent with second amendment. A total ban might be found by the court not to be. Local govt have to keep machine guns out of street. What I favor is what works in NY. What woks in NY wont’ work in Montana! So blanket not work! NY one thing, upstate is different, so the law is different [good]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I have to agree with WS over at The Confluence. Did he really compare Sen. Coburn with William Ayers?

And did he also try to equate the fact that Clinton pardoned some remorseful bombers, with Hillary being teh evul?

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

I sure hope so. Being compared to an anti-American terrorist won’t exactly sit well with the pro-“life” crowd.

Q Affluent AA vs poor whites

OBAMA Basic principle, ladders of opportunity… Race is still a factor.. Aff Action only in context of whole person…. I still believe in AffAc but it must be applied to the whole person. Make sure people can walk through doors of opp

CLINTON Aff actin generally for young people from any backgroud. End NCLB, in favor of college affordable, not predatory loans. We have a gap in achievement, in income, but not potential! Health care for everyone, no excetion. Affirmatively invest in our young people!

Gas prices….

CLINTON 1. Investigate market manuplation in energy traners, seen before Enron 2. No strat reserve 3. Gas tax moratorium, may have do somethign, people can’t afford to drive to work — 4. Windfall profit, back in Highy Trust. Ultimately, energy strategy. Worse off now than before 9/11

OBAMA: That’s why people are cynical, nothing gets done. [ Follows Clinton talking points….] ONly way is reduce demand , the Chinese want cars. Need to increase fuel efficeincy. A Manhattan Project…

How use former Presidents eg Bush?

HILLARY I’m going to have to give some serious thought to that. Former Presidnets, when all together, sends a strong message. Will take some thought [nervous laughter]

OBAMA More likely to ask advice of Bush !. It was a wise policy [!] bipartisan. A lot of thoughtful R out there. We’ve been locked into divisive politics and this Pres has fed those divisions.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Q Affluent AA vs poor whites

OBAMA Basic principle, ladders of opportunity… Race is still a factor.. Aff Action only in context of whole person…. I still believe in AffAc but it must be applied to the whole person. Make sure people can walk through doors of opp

CLINTON Aff actin generally for young people from any backgroud. End NCLB, in favor of college affordable, not predatory loans. We have a gap in achievement, in income, but not potential! Health care for everyone, no excetion. Affirmatively invest in our young people!

Gas prices….

CLINTON 1. Investigate market manuplation in energy traners, seen before Enron 2. No strat reserve 3. Gas tax moratorium, may have do somethign, people can’t afford to drive to work — 4. Windfall profit, back in Highy Trust. Ultimately, energy strategy. Worse off now than before 9/11

OBAMA: That’s why people are cynical, nothing gets done. [ Follows Clinton talking points….] ONly way is reduce demand , the Chinese want cars. Need to increase fuel efficeincy. A Manhattan Project…

How use former Presidents eg Bush?

HILLARY I’m going to have to give some serious thought to that. Former Presidnets, when all together, sends a strong message. Will take some thought [nervous laughter]

OBAMA More likely to ask advice of Bush !. It was a wise policy [!] bipartisan. A lot of thoughtful R out there. We’ve been locked into divisive politics and this Pres has fed those divisions.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

They’re already flogging the Ayers thing.

Q: How would you use GWB?

A: (should’ve been) As an example how not to run a country!

Yes.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

How make the case that you are better:

HILLARY Need a fighter. 55B from corps to tax cuts for middle class. We’re gong to make everybody feel like they’re part of Am family again. Need peopl who belive and suport. Lifetime support and empower. Challenging. Tell everyone who listens I’m ready to be C-i-c. 35 generals endorsed. We will get back to shared props of the few by the few for the few Need your help to get t those conversations. You can count on me you know where I stand u know I will fight and we will take back our country

OBAMA [We’re in trouble] Am people disillusioned about their govt promises made decade after decade. =Change does not ahppend from the top down, but bottom up no PAC no spec interest. Bet on Am pepoel and bet paid off. Peopel not participate in years. My point if we are to deliver on helath care for every Am need a new political colation that’s what we’ve done in this campaign [would that were so!]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

How make the case that you are better:

HILLARY Need a fighter. 55B from corps to tax cuts for middle class. We’re gong to make everybody feel like they’re part of Am family again. Need peopl who belive and suport. Lifetime support and empower. Challenging. Tell everyone who listens I’m ready to be C-i-c. 35 generals endorsed. We will get back to shared props of the few by the few for the few Need your help to get t those conversations. You can count on me you know where I stand u know I will fight and we will take back our country

OBAMA [We’re in trouble] Am people disillusioned about their govt promises made decade after decade. Change does not happen from the top down, but bottom up, so no PAC no spec interest. Bet on Am people and bet paid off. People participate not participate in years. My point if we are to deliver on health care for every Am

Need a new political coalition that’s what we’ve done in this campaign [would that were so!]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

i totally had forgotten about that!

; >

Obama will get eaten alive by McCain.

I mean, I think Clinton could have done a better job, but I put her on that stage with McCain, and I know she’ll tear McCain a new asshole at every opportunity.

And McCain will turn Obama into a freaking loofa, he’ll have so many new assholes.

his questionable comments, etc—they put him on the spot numerous times as opposed to simply doing it to her like they’ve done in the past.

and he was called on some of his lies at least—the Ayers board connection for one.

too bad no one brought up his lobbyist ties—the hosts never really do their homework, and hope the other person will bring up stuff, which sucks.

[In fact, that’s a pretty good word for her… ]

She said, more or less, “I’d have to think very carefully about that.” [laughter]

Good!

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

the foreign policy stuff—sad.

I’m not sure her Bosnia answer was that great

she should have just admitted that she’s a politician, she’s running for office, and politicians sometime exaggerate stuff when they give speeches. And she exaggerated, and she apologized.

And I really wish she would go after the media for concentrating on trivia, and not issues. I mean REALLY go after Charlie and George…. walk away from the podium, go down to where they are sitting, pick up the list of questions, and turn to the crowd and say “I just need to know if these guys have any questions about Health Care, or Iraq, or the economy, because I know that’s what YOU want to hear about.”

The crowd would go crazy. And the election would be over.

I’m about to watch the rest of it. I will say that HRC did not do a good job on the sniper question. Does she have a clear statement elsewhere?

Also, she was a little clumsy building her case that Wright matters, though she did make some reasonable points along the way.

I need to read up about Ayers so I can get a handle on what that Coburn comparison was about.

Also, Obama’s “learned the wrong lessons” is what passes for high-road with the OFB, but it sounded pretty nasty to me.

From the comments here, sounds like they eventually moved off the gotcha stuff into the wonky territory where Hillary rulez.

Rendell said clinton won, tore the media a new asshole, and then said again that clinton won.

Now, everyone who watched the debate here in Philly knows that Ed Rendell gets it — that Charlie and George don’t give a damn about OUR issues, and he went after them for it. So he doesn’t have to sell Hillary, he’s already got everybody on his side, and when he says “Clinton won”, people believe him.

The guy is such a gifted politican….

So it’s coming on at 8pm local

I usually don’t watch debates but I’m watching this one.

Sounds like they finally treated Obama like a Democrat and he didn’t like it.

————————————————————————
“If I was Vice-President, you know what I’d do?

Vote for me!” - Joe Walsh (channeling Dick Cheney)

Why he doesn’t mention fmr Pres. Clinton. If Obama says he did good things, then people might think, well why not vote for her?

But he goes out of his way to denigrate Clinton, as an attack on her, and that is just distasteful, plus it goes against my bones, since I’m a GOOD Democrat.

And the Coburn comment, I actually get, and I think it was an attempt to get back on the good graces of the pro-choice coalition that he does have. His recent comments from the Faith Forum, and the “wrenching moral choice” were bad, and he knows it. But Obama’s Coburn comment was valid, if Coburn had his way, more women would die from septic and failed abortions per year, than people who died in the WTC attacks. So I’ll say it is a valid comparison, though I could likely get flamed for it.

Obama will get roasted for his comments about Coburn, though. Bad move.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

Critical show down. Focus group came undecided, did debate change view?

45% changed view.

Jeez, when Obama starts talking about Wright, the curve drops…

Same deal with Clinton on Bosnia…. Dropping curves…

I guess I know what we’ll be bearing for the next week….

NUTTER: One winner is Philly [YEAH!!!]

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

55 Clinton

45 Obama

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

but i bet she was just thrilled that Obama got more flak than her for once out of 20+ debates.

she knows that this stuff is what moderators care about—Gibson showed it tonight when he harped on the 95k-200k people over and over and capital gains—he doesn’t know or care that the vast vast majority of families take home around 50k or less.

they don’t care about the issues, or about the working poor—they think 100k is typical middle class. There was a boneheaded comment about teacher salaries in a previous debate that showed the same ignorance about salaries.

So, what does AP run with? Hillary emphatically says Obama can win White House.

Sweet Jeebus, what was she supposed to say?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

working class Dems in PA and elsewhere?

I don’t.

All the experts (and me, I confess) thought that the debate didn’t change any minds.

And yet, the data was right in front of the us saying that the experts were wrong for both undecideds (!) and students (!!!). So, fuck the experts, among whom apparently I must number myself, since I was wrong in exactly the same way they were.

It would be nice if this turned out to be another NH moment…

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Democrati…

— Clinton, Obama Find ’Brotherly Love’ at Philly

wtf?

from commentor OHIO over at The Confluence (h/t Aeryl):

Clinton Wipes Floor With Obama:
Obama Declared Awesomest Floor Mop Ever

Obama people will say he’s just a Clinton person and therefore all questions to O were unfair and biased.

I wonder what Rosalynn Carter, who was the Active Honorary Chair of President Carter’s Commission on Mental Health, and Tipper Gore, who was the Mental Health Policy Advisor to President Clinton, thought when they heard Obama refer to persons who are mentally deranged.

We’ve come a long way, baby.

Not.

she always struck me (him too) as so normal and unstuffy…and they did such a great job protecting Amy and keeping her out of the news.

it’s sad.

run discussion?

or…about Bush?

Can put my fingers on the keyboard but I can’t make them type (accurately).

and it’s only wednesday—ugh…

jawbone, Ordinarily, I wouldn’t provide the nyx with a hit, but try finding a transcript of the debate other than at their site, that’s not provided by the Federal News Service, a subscription service. But about 4/5 down the page, you’ll find this…

SENATOR OBAMA: We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns.

I could swear I heard him use that word twice in that part of the debate, but since there’s only one source right now to search [and I don’t have time to watch a video], I’ll have to wait to find out if my brain is playing tricks.

But I was shocked when I heard it [not once, but twice perhaps, as I wrote already], because I think that descriptive adjective rises to the level of a slur.

I give him a pass on this. The federal gun laws prohibit people who are mentally defective (yes, they really say that) from getting a gun. I presume he simply got his words mixed up from some briefing paper somewhere.