Photo by Adel Hana AP
The silence is deafening.
January 18, 2008
Israel blocked shipment of food, fuel and all other supplies into the Gaza Strip on Friday and intensified airstrikes on the Palestinian territory, calling the steps a response to increasing rocket attacks into Israel. Ellen Knickmeyer, Washington Post
December 27, 2008
Hospitals crowded with people, civilians rushing in wounded people in cars, vans and ambulances. "There are heads without bodies .... There's blood in the corridors. People are weeping, women are crying, doctors are shouting, " said nurse Ahmed Abdel Salaam from Shifa Hospital, Gaza's main treatment center. By early evening, 205 Gazans were known to be dead and 388 wounded, Gaza health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said. He did not provide figures on civilian deaths. Israeli military officials said more than 100 tons of bombs were dropped on Gaza by mid-afternoon. IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press
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thank you
thank you for posting on this
This is one of my top 10 ten issues....
and whenever I mention that there is a Palestinian side to the issue (that largely of the victim), I'm met with cold, icy, uninterested stares from most Americans.
Like DCBlogger, thank you for posting this.
I find there are two Americas on this
A. The mainstream, which includes the news media, the Beltway, and non-lefties. In their world, Israel is never blameworthy, Jerusalem must be its permanent capital, etc.
B. Lefty circles (progressive blogs, academia, etc.), where there is virtually never any outrage expressed about, say, missile attacks and suicide bombings on Israeli targets.
My #1 agenda on this topic is for people to acknowledge that kneejerk "respect" afforded to people's religious superstitions is a huge part of the problem. No God gave anybody any birthright to the "Holy Lands," and the day we can reliably expect rational acknowledgment of that is the day there's a hope of a peaceful resolution.
No God gave -- the int'l community did --
post WW2.
the UN Partitioned it -- by ethnic group.
Not Genocide, but war
Hamas has been committing war crimes daily, yet no one of the left ever bothered about that. In fact, more than 5000 missiles have been fired from Gaza into Israel, intentionally targeting civilians - everyone a war crime. On top of that, Hamas has situated its military infrastructure in civilian areas...another war crime.
Almost all those Palestinians killed today were Hamas terrorists. Any civilians killed were a result of Hamas placing their bases in civilian areas, and therefore by international law they are solely responsible for those civilian deaths.
bull!
total bull.
and our military infrastructure is in civilian areas too -- would that make it ok to bomb every town and city with a military base or armory? no.
they're totally cut off, and can't even get food aid in, and are blocked by both Eqypt and Israel -- wtf should they do?
wtf should they
wtf should they do?
Hmm....stop firing rockets into Israel would be a good first step.
and our military infrastructure is in civilian areas too -- would that make it ok to bomb every town and city with a military base or armory?
But it would be ok to bomb those bases...exactly what Israel is doing in Gaza.
no, they're bombing police stations and downtowns --
Police Stations
Don't know where you're from, but the US does not put military bases in major urban centers, precisely because in the event of an attack they would get bombed.
Meanwhile, Hamas does exactly that; it puts bases, weapons depots, etc in the middle of Gaza City precisely because it knows that when those bases are bombed, civilians will be killed and useful idiots like you will react in exactly the way you did.
And those "police", aren't exactly the cop-on-the-beat police. They are Hamas fighters, ie military personnel. Bombing them is not only legal, but essential.
Finally, even in the midst of Gaza city, almost all of those killed were Hamas terrorists. From the article you posted:
The fact that out of more than two hundred killed there were only 12 civilian casualties (95% military) is amazing and a testament to Israel's policy of targeting terrorists and not civilians, in complete contrast to Hamas which does the opposite.no, they weren't terrorists-- they were cops and cadets --
they weren't the ones firing rockets. And all cops there are "Hamas police" -- they are the govt.
Just as all people who wanted govt jobs --or to do well-- had to join the Baath Party under Saddam, and the Communist Party under the USSR.
and Israel knows that, too -- they have the best targeting systems our billions in aid each year can buy.
and every week, we're bombing and killing innocent Afghanis -- are they "terrorists" too? Simply because they live there -- and have to make a living?
they weren't the ones firing
they weren't the ones firing rockets.
Not yet...but once they graduate, they are the ones who fire the rockets.
So you are equating Hamas to the Baath Party, and to the Communist Party in the USSR. That statement I would agree with...just another totalitarian regime.
you're wrong -- police cadets are not the ones
firing rockets -- the vast vast majority of people in Gaza are not firing rockets either.
What do you suggest people do for work and food there, Nudnik? What are the options? What do you think you'd be doing if you lived in Gaza City? in Baghdad under Saddam? in Iran under the Shahs? in most countries at most times throughout history?
Wow.
How's the weather down there?
I despise apologists.
and the Iraqis shouldn't have fought us either?
and we and the French shouldn't have revolted violently either?
get real.
And Israel's military infrastructure is
in civilian areas as well. It's strange how someone can hold the Palestinians to a higher standard than he or she holds the Israelis and yet still assume that the Israelis have the moral high ground.... I was about to call it "funny" but nothing about this is funny.
The root of the problem is not the violence. The violence ion both sides is simply a result of the inequality and the occupation and the desire of Israel to treat the people's of that land differently based on their religion or ethnic background.
The best allegory I can think of is of a man standing on another man's chest. Occasionally the prone man lashes out and hits the legs of the man on his chest. In retaliation the man above him kicks him in the head. Bystanders notice and decry the violence, but never seem to notice that one man is standing on the chest of the other, slowly forcing the life out of him. Some people decry the act of violence by the prone man, some decry the violence of the man astride. Some decry that both are to blame. But in the end, the man is still standing on the other man's chest, and no one seems to notice, or see what is obviously the original cause of the violence on both sides.
Few people decried the violence in apartheid South Africa without noticing that it was not a cause of the problem, but only a result. Too few people understand that the problem in Israel and the Occupied Territories, at its base, is the same as it was in South Africa.
exactly
the overwhelmingly disproportionate response by Israel each time, and the walling and blockading makes the situation even more desperate for Palestinians. They're shut in without food or work, and simply expected to take it?
no one would shut up and accept that treatment -- why should they?
Israel's military infrastructure
You obviously have never been to Israel. Having traveled extensively in Israel, the only bases I saw were very far away from the cities. The only infrastructure in the cities, is the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv.
if you count police stations/police as terrorists, then
all govt workers in Israel are valid targets too, no? It's never a person on a military base who orders bombing and airstrikes and blockades and walls built and checkpoints constructed -- it's govt officials.
Wrong. My sister lives in Israel.
(Yes, she's a Jewish Israeli citizen. ) You obviously weren't paying attention during the Lebanon War, when it was exposed that Israel had several military related outposts situated in close proximity to Arab populated cities in Israel, with the hopes that they would not be targeted by Hezbollah if they were so close to Arab Israelis. You would also know that there are several outpost next to or in Jewish border towns.
If you were as familiar with Israel as I am you would also know that the majority of citizens of Israel over the age of 18 are, or have been, members of the IDF or the reserves. By your standard of complicity, most Israelis are NOT civilians, although I suspect that you, again, hold the Palestinians to a higher standard than you do Israelis.
If you have traveled so often in Israel, then I would guess that you are aware that IDF reserve soldiers, when reporting for duty, do not use military transport, but rather use the Israeli bus system, on which they are encouraged to travel freely. Again, by your standard( if you applied it to the Israelis as well) this would make every suicide attack on an Israeli bus a legitimate attack on a military target.
Have you been to the West Bank? Have you visited with Palestinians? I suggest that the next time you visit, look up Birthright Unplugged and get an eyeful and earful of what you are condoning in the name of Israel.
Comparisons
So Israeli military bases, were in proximity to cities, but not actually in the center of the cities as Hamas has placed them.
The mistake you are making is equating people who are eligible for reserve duty with combatants. This is wholly incorrect. Yes, most Israelis are subject to reserve duty. But while they are not in uniform, they are civilians. This is basic international law. Until they get to their base and put on a uniform, they are not soldiers or combatants, so your entire argument is meaningless.
Moreover, those Hamas terrorists killed were not reserve combatants, they were in uniform, making them legitimate targets.
And yes, I have been to the West Bank, and have visited and talked to Palestinians. And every one of them was a whole lot happier with the situation when Israel was in control of the West Bank. I am sure this goes doubly for Gaza.
An Israeli military weapons
storage area was within meters of the town of Nazareth. It most likely wasn't in the center of Nazareth because 1) There wasn't enough open space for it in the center of Nazareth, which is quite crowded and 2) Security concerns about its Arab citizens would have prevented it from being there. Israel put it there specifically because they wanted to use the Israeli Arabs of Nazareth as human shields.
There was also a Lebanese rocket attack that hit an Israeli base that was right in the middle of one of the Jewish border towns. Israel tried to pretend it was an attack on civilians, but the number of soldiers among the dead belied the fact. If you live in Israel you come to realize that the IDF seldom tells the truth unless forced to..
As for Hamas "military bases" I doubt that there really are such things. They don't have the means to create them. And in case you didn't know, there are no real open spaces in Gaza, which has the highest population density in the world. Again, you hold Palestinians to higher standards than you hold Israelis. So an IDF member is a civilian until he puts on a uniform and reports to his base, but a Palestinian is a military member whether he is in uniform or not, or at a base or not. That is your double standard. Israeli soldiers have been shooting at civilians, including children, for decades now, and yet you only find the fault with Palestinians. http://www.couragetorefuse.org/English/d...
And Israel is still in control in the West Bank, through the occupation, and even in Gaza, through its blockade. Its silly to insist otherwise. So, do you think that Israel is justified in treating the Palestinians in the West Bank as inferior to the Jewish settlers there, with one rule of law for the settlers and another one for the Palestinians. Did you bother to ask the Palestinians how they felt about that?
it's evil -- and we wholly fund it and officially support it --
and Obama's gonna stay the course, of course. here he is at AIPAC --
Real security can only come through lasting peace. That is In Israel's national interest, in America's national interest, and in the Palestinian peoples' interest. (applause)
I will help achieve the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. And I won't wait until waning days of my presidency. I will take an active role to advance cause of peace from start of my administration (applause). ...
There is no room at the negotiating table for terrorist organizations. (applause) That is why I opposed allowing Hamas to run in 2006 presidential elections. Israel and the Palestinian Authority warned us, but this administration pressed ahead. The result is Gaza controlled by Hamas. ...
lenin's tomb--
no comment from Obama -- & Israel 1st broke the ceasefire--
Israel's ongoing war on Palestinian self-determination (EDIT: 200+ dead, Obama: no comment)
NYT, November -- Israeli Strike Is First in Gaza Since Start of Cease-Fire --
Five militants were killed, Palestinian officials told The Associated Press.
An Israeli security force had entered Gaza to destroy a tunnel and fought with Hamas gunmen, killing one and wounding at least three, according to Palestinian hospital officials. ...
And the rest of that article
And the rest of that article says:
So the "sporadic rocket and mortar fire" as well as preparing an abduction is part of the truce, but the Israeli response is a violation of it? Makes sense.
it wasn't a response to the "sporadic" rockets from "renegades -
not in any way, shape, or form.
And the truce was so that aid could get in, but Israel hasn't allowed aid in.
And one more thing -- Hamas was democratically elected.
Response
No, it was a response to an imminent Hamas operation to abduct a soldier and hold him hostage. The "sporadic rocket and mortar attacks" part of the ceasefire, Israel ignored.
And the truce was that Hamas would not rearm and would not continue shooting rockets at Israel. But that didn't happen.
Hamas was elected...democratically is a bit of a stretch. But that fact also means that the Palestinian people support Hamas's policies. Maybe they should elect someone else next time.
The charge of gencide is a contemptible lie.
Palestinian population doesn't fall from one year to the next, it rises.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
and that terrifies them, Randall --
they kill far more Palestinians than the other way around -- always. Today's bombs killed hundreds -- and the blockades, walls, and embargo are killing far more.
I take your non sequitur as an admission that
the charge of genocide is phony.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
i see it as a sometimes direct "ethnic cleansing" and
sometimes indirect.
(i do think, tho, that since so many Israelis believe that all Arabs want them all dead, it'd be foolish not to turn that around, and understandable for Palestinians to see it as such -- esp given Israel's official policies of illegal landgrabs, resource grabs, discrimination even against Israeli Arabs, walls, blockades, and overt segregation and apartheid, etc)
Not all Arabs want all Israelis dead, but Hamas does.
Hence the state of war between the two belligerents, Israel and Hamas.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
except it's not -- one wholly controls the other, and
even controls whether they eat or not and whether or not needed aid can get in.
that's not "a state of war". That's a ghetto and/or internment camp.
No, it's a state of belligerency.
Otherwise the Kassam rocket attacks would not be happening.
Otherwise, there would have been no need of a truce - a truce which Hamas announced it was going to break.
Day to day, Hamas, not Israel, controls Gaza. Hamas also has an intended aim of killing all Iaraelis. That's a de facto state of war by any measure.
In any event, the blockade is a joint Israel-Egypt operation - not that anyone ever notices.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
Randall, as far as I know, no one has
been able to do an accurate population count in Gaza or the West Bank for years.
For an alternate viewpoint, there is this from a racist Israeli group about the accuracy of Palestinian projections: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/padem...
My sister(the Israeli) says that this viewpoint has gained some measure of acceptance in Israel, thus there is less of a countrywide concern about the "demographic threat".
So its hard to say what the true results of Israel's actions are in Gaza. But its hard to call this:
anything other than an attempt at slow genocide.
Similar, though somewhat less catastrophic(i.e., slower), things are happening in the West Bank. Perhaps a better word would be "politicide". Israel doesn't mind a few Palestinians around, as long as they have no cohesion as a group, are walled off in isolated enclaves away from fertile land; out of sight and thus out of mind. They are going for the American "solution" vis a vis he American Indians.
Actually, they're not.
If they did, they'd occupy Gaza permanently. That's the last thing they seem to want to do.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
they've walled them in -- it is worse than occupying --
and they wholly control what goes in and out.
Actually, they are
Gaza is like one big American Indian reservation of the late nineteeth century and many Palestinian towns in the West Bank are slowly becoming the same because of the Wall and the constant expropriation of more and more Palestinian land.
Israel never really wanted the land in Gaza, except as a holding pen for Palestinians. The land is not rich, and the water table is contaminated with salt water from excessive Israeli drilling. Its perfect reservation land in the US mold.
I'd try a thought experiment if I were you. Imagine that it was not Israel doing this but it was instead being done by the US. Would you understand how people could be shocked by this? Could you be shocked by this?
connecting the dots
interesting data points from Singularity
Jimmy Carter is correct, Israel will never have peace unless it pulls back to the 1967 border.
Doc, will Israel have peace after it returns to the '67 borders?
That's funny, it didn't have peace before.
I don't disagree with you and Jimmy, but the strife didn't begin in '67.
no, the strife did not begin in 1967
but Israel's slide to torturing police state began then.
The Palestinians have learned a lot since '67. It has to all be worked out, but the essence has to be adherence to UN Resolutions 242 and 334, Camp David, and the more recent Geneva Accords.
UN resolutions
I suggest you reread the UN resolutions you are citing. (And the Geneva Accords are meaningless since they were "negotiated" by people from both sides who had no authority to negotiate anything.) UN 242 does not state that Israel needs to return to the 1967 borders. In fact, in the framing of that resolution, it is clear that the intent was that Israel would not have to return to those borders. In fact, based on the wording of that resolution, a legitimate argument can be made that Israel already fulfilled the terms of it by returning Sinai. Moreover, UN242 requires something from the Arab side...peace. Still waiting for that one.
resolution 242
Complete Text
Actually it is quite clear, it is just that there is a whole industry devoted to blowing smoke.
Quite clear
Absolutely right, it is quite clear that Israel does not need to withdraw from "all territories" or "the territory" occupied in the conflict. Here is what Lord Carrandon. the British Ambassador to the UN who introduced UN 242 said:
And what of point 1(ii) of the resolution? Still waiting for that from the Arab belligerents.
And apparently you're still quite
clueless that point 1(ii) applies to Israel as well. and we are all still waiting for the Israeli belligerence to end. Or is it your viewpoint that Israel is not required to adhere to either point 1(i) or point 1(ii)? No wonder there is no peace. There are too many people, in Israel and here in the US, that think that the only way to resolve a conflict is for everyone else to bend to their will, and then can't understand why they are so hated by everyone. It must be because of our religion , or because they envy our freedoms. It couldn't possibly be our attitudes and actions. Yeah, good luck with that.
Good night.
Israel didn't announce that the truce was dead, Hamas did.
Speaking of clues.
JFK has been shot, we miss him a lot
He always knew what to do
-- Philly Cream
Again, not surprisingly, the point is missed.
Israel has been a belligerent occupier of the West Bank and Gaza since 1967. It has never ceased its belligerence. It has twice invaded parts of Lebanon and occupied it. Its the picture postcard of belligerence in this long running conflict. It continues to control Gaza through its blockade, determining what gets in and when, who gets in and who gets out, and its control of Gaza's electricity (having bombed the Gaza power plant, Israel has now made Gazan's totally dependent on electricity from Israel. ) If you can't see the belligerence that Israel has shown through the decades on this, then you truly are clueless.
Adherence
Israel has already adhered to point 1(i) by returning the Sinai. As to point 1(ii), it is the arab states that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, and still insist that there is a state of war with Israel. No wonder there is no peace.
"to topple Hamas" -- their election promises --
BBC, Dec 22 -- Israeli leaders 'to topple Hamas'
A blockade is an act of war
Israel has been blockading Gaza for over a year. That is food, water, fuel and medical supplies. The Israeli government has been starving Gaza to death. The Israeli death count from some 300 rockets was at last count 0. Israel has become an apartheid state, and worst than that it has commited itself to the eradication of an entire people. What else do you call this but a pogrom?
A whole year?
First, you are incorrect that Israel has been "starving Gaza to death". There has not been one case of starvation in Gaza. Supplies have been getting in during the "truce". Hamas has built dozens of tunnels for smuggling weapons, why haven't they been smuggling food through them too? Moreover, why is Egypt not allowing supplies to get in?
The Israeli death count from those last 300 rockets is so far 1 civilian dead, and 8 injured. But why does that matter? The Palestinians have fired over 5000 missiles into Israel, targeting civilians. Each one of those is a war crime under international law. The fact that they have crappy missiles does not mean that they have not been trying to kill Israeli civilians. Would this Israeli retaliation been ok with you if those missiles had killed people? Does Israel have to wait until its civilians are butchered before it can respond? That is simply inane.
Hamas has been preparing for and waging war against Israel. Now Israel responds, and all the useful idiots get upset. If Hamas had wanted to stop the blockade, or had wanted negotiations, all they had to do was to stop firing missiles into Israel. But then they would actually have to govern, as opposed to being a heroic resistance movement. Much easier to keep their own people miserable than to actually do something good for them. They chose to wage war, thinking that Israel will not have the stomach to fight back, and now they are crying that Israel has done what any country in the world not only would do, but is obligated to do. No, it is not a pogrom, it is a war that Hamas started and that Israel has finally joined.