They were little people, niggers like us. They deserved what they got.

Move along, people, move along. There's no story here.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Tell me why you fail to applaud Blackwater for disrupting an ATTACK on a US State Department Convoy, which could have resulted in the loss of American lives. Without facts, you immediately take sides with those shooting at said State Department convoy.

You're a turd in my opinion-- the country is eaten up with corruption. Most Blackwater guys I've worked with are guys working hard to see that change occurs. Most of them are dyed in the wool patriots, helping out with numerous projects including infrastructure development, protective services and security. You sound like a little shit who hasn't ever had to fight for anything in his life. Mocking the attempted assasination of US government personnel is pretty low.

Why don't you get on the side of America son and root for the home team. Just a thought.

James

Sorry, but the "home" being fought in is, um, Iraq. If State Department personnel are so beloved that they can't drive down the street without being attacked on sight, even when being escorted by mercenaries in large numbers, perhaps we ought to reconsider whether either they or the mercenaries are being properly deployed.

You also overlook the fact that hired guns like Blackwater are being paid vastly more than US military members who would otherwise be performing tasks like this. Is this what you consider a proper show of "supporting our troops", forwarding our cause (whatever that is), or for that matter expenditure of YOUR tax money?

Oh, and just for the record, what part of Iraq are you posting from? I always assume anybody who thinks the Iraqi Occupation is such a splendid endeavor should logically be taking part in it, eh?

It's not likely to happen.

There are over 150,000 private contractors in Iraq with a financial stake in keeping the Endless War endless.

Blackwater represents everything that has gone wrong with America since 2000. They no more represent America than the corporations that backed the Nazis in WWII did.

The real problem is that they're the tip of a very corrupt iceberg that is the military industrial and political power base for much of America.

Despite their power, there is now massive opposition to them among American voters.

Even though the corporate machine that controls the defense and security industry also controls the mass media, they are finding their lies are more often ringing hollow in the ears of those voters.

They will be getting more strident, and be more bullying and violent as the 2008 elections approach.

The keys to stopping Blackwater are with information and education. Only these will defeat the shocks these criminals will seek to use to manipulate the system. We'll only be free of them when we prosecute the profiteers of endless war.

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

Naomi (reg. req.):

Much of the parallel disaster economy has been built with taxpayers’ money, thanks to the boom in privatized war-zone reconstruction. The giant contractors that have served as “the primes” in Iraq and Afghanistan have spent large portions of their income from government contracts on their own corporate overhead—between 20 and 55 percent, according to a 2006 audit of Iraq contractors. Much of those funds has, quite legally, gone into huge investments in corporate equipment, such as Bechtel’s battalions of earth movers, Halliburton’s fleets of planes and trucks, and the surveillance architecture built by L-3, CACI, and Booz Allen. Most dramatic has been Blackwater’s investment in its paramilitary infrastructure. Founded in 1996, the company has used its steady stream of contracts to build up a private army of 20,000 on-call mercenary soldiers and a military base in North Carolina worth between $40 million and $50 million. It reportedly has the ability to field massive humanitarian operations faster than the Red Cross, and boasts a fleet of aircraft ranging from helicopter gunships to a Boeing 767.

Plus there is a little outfit known as Triple Canopy ready to step in and handle our private security needs. Heck, we paid for them, we might as well use them.

"A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

we had a fun conversation over a few drinks, and he told me about his company's adventures in af'stan. spooky shit.

sigh. the troll on this board sums up the problem. for guys like him, it's all just a big game. the human life lost is mythologized in his mind into Good and Evil, and he's always on the Right Team. childish and pathetic, really. at least the TC guy i spoke with had a brain, and clearly was in it for the money and not afraid to admit it. james, i hope you too enjoy a couple range rovers and personal jets; otherwise your support for endless MIC adventures just makes you seem like a sucker. if you're going to be a heartless and bloodthirsty racist, you may as well make a little money off it.

But James, you don't give any.

Of course, it's hard work being a troll, so maybe you don't have the time. On the other hand, maybe you don't give any because you don't have any.

And "turd" is so not original. Why not follow Admiral Fallon, and call us "little ass-kissing chickenshits"? Oh, wait... That might call up awkward associations...

In closing, please don't expose your pathetic need to be dominated by leaving comments like this. You're embarassing all of us.

Peace out....

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

'Nuff said. Hey, Lambert, can you check to see if James's IP is from Moyock, NC?

But I still believe
And I will rise up with fists!!

Nor would you want me to. Eh?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

the US Army in this case but a group of mercenaries, "private security contractors". That's kinda the problem here, eh?

(not directed at you Scar, but rather at "James." And I hear they--the Blackwaters, the Custer Battles, all that ilk--really, really hate the word "mercenaries" and try to scrub it out wherever they find it. I therefore intend to use it at any opportunity I get, and as Hecate says about patriarchy, I get a lot of opportunities.)

If this encounter had been between the US Army escorting a State Department mission, and some unspecified insurgents--pause for question: why do we not refer to these people as "resistance fighters"? We would under any other circumstance of any other war would we not?--ahem, as I was saying, in such a case we would have some level of accountability. Chain of command. UCMJ.

Blackwater? Invoices.

It will be interesting to see how the use of mercenaries plays out when the stab-in-the-back meme really gets virulent. Who want to bet the next Rambo is a merc?

As you say, Xan: Invoices.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Gonna be interesting to see how this one plays out.

"...we want to continue to work with the sovereign government of Iraq to accomplish our mutual objective, which is a free country that can govern itself, sustain itself, and defend itself..."

George W. Bush, December 4, 2006.

... that a heavily armed, Christianist mercenary group operating in a jurisdictional vacuum would commit any wrongdoing.

Blackwater is a right-wing extremist group that is growing into a powerful army capable of doing a lot of damage. The must be dissolved immediately before more damage is done.

Mercs forfeit their claim to human rights when the proclaim their life-and-death loyalty to the Almighty Dollar, and agree to eschew normal, human compassion and mercy by killing for profit.
I don't and won't shed a fucking tear for ANY of the blood-thirsty sonsobitches...

"A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner"

But even if they are, what could go wrong?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince

Erik Prince (born June 6, 1969 in Holland, Michigan) is the founder and owner of the military support contractor Blackwater USA. A millionaire and former US Navy SEAL, after high school he briefly attended the United States Naval Academy before attending and graduating from Hillsdale College. After college, he earned a commission in the United States Navy after joining in 1992, and served as a Navy SEAL officer on deployments to Haiti, the Middle East and the Mediterranean, including Bosnia. When his father Edgar Prince unexpectedly died in 1995, he ended his Navy service prematurely. After Erik's mother, Elsa Prince, sold the family's automobile parts company, Prince Corporation, for $1.3 billion to Johnson Controls, Inc., Erik moved to Virginia Beach and personally financed the formation of Blackwater USA at the age of 27.

Prince is the brother of Betsy DeVos, a former chairman of the Republican Party of Michigan and wife of former Alticor (Amway) president and Gubernatorial candidate Dick DeVos.

Prince's first wife, Joan Nicole Prince, died of cancer in 2003, and he has since remarried and has six children. He now runs Prince Group, Blackwater's parent company, from an office in McLean, Virginia and also serves as a board member of Christian Freedom International, a nonprofit group with a mission of helping "Christians who are persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ".

The DeVos connection I think I had heard of but the Christianist angle I did not know about. Like I needed something else to loathe Blackwater for.

Prince Namor was ranting about "mercenaries" after watching the news tonight (NBC) and was going on about how such forces can never be trusted. They fight for whoever provides the paycheck, and if the "enemy" of today reaches out with a bigger paycheck they will switch sides on a dime tomorrow.

Doesn't sound like that's likely with this outfit...but then again historically mercenary armies and "foreign legion" type operations stake their loyalty to their immediate superior on the ground, not any higher-ups.

Or as the Prince put it, "We're putting US soldiers' lives at risk for a bunch of guys who 10 years ago were thumbing through the Help Wanted ads in the back of 'Soldier of Fortune' magazine."

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/...

I love the name "Erik-with-a-K" "Prince" (heh, my clumsy morning fingers left out the "n" and typed "Price"...). Such a potent signifier.

So, Erik's on the board of an outfit that rescues missionaries. That's always been a useful way to start a war.

But if chaos is The Plan, I can't imagine a better way to implement it than by privatizing what used to be the state's monopoly of violence.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Blackwater operates with ROE not unlike what our military uses. Blackwater parading around Iraq shooting anything they please is a myth propogated by little left-wing faggot Al Gore fanboys such as yourself.

I think God every single day of my life that little shits like you don't run this country. And you know what? You never will. All brains and no balls. Try growing a set.

You don't serve because you can't. You'd choke. You're scared. I can smell the fear on you right now. You tell yourself shit like, "I'm too smart for that..." or "I don't like people telling me what to do, I'm such a rebel....." Spare me the bullshit. You're not that fucking important and you never will be.

You make yourself feel better about the fact you have no backbone by calling everyone that believes in something a murderer or a right-winger or a (OMG) Christian!

It's sad that you fit the 'typical dumbass liberal' stereotype so well that I've got you pegged after reading only one article.

There is at least 42,000 other blogs just like this all across the internet with little faggot ass pukes like you bitching and whining about this war. You may disagree with it, fine. Don't you dare speak of the people fighing in it, Blackwater or not. You haven't earned that right.

Don't like it? Do something. Put down your bong, take a shower, and stop being such a gutless faggot. Banging on your keyboard does absolutely no good.

And to the other guy who is 'in the know' about Triple Canopy operations in Afghanistan, you're full of shit and I'm calling you out. You liberals are so rabid with your hatred for anything anti-terrorist that you just pull 'facts' strait out of your candy asses.

PS

I hope a cop nails your ass with a bean bag from his 12 gauge at your next protest you fucking slimy hippie.

Let me think here, who do I believe? I guess I've got a couple choices, don't I? I can trust the media, who get their reports from:
A-journalists, typing away furiously at their macs from the comfort of the green zone.
B-paid informants, given money from AQI for the information they bring forward to the press. The bloodier, the better.
C-threatened informants, who are under pressure from terrorists to say exactly what the radical islamists want them to, our else a member of their family just may be doused with gasoline and set on fire.
Or, alternatively, do I trust the guys who are over there, boots on the ground, getting SUVs blown out from underneath them and taking small arms, all the while protecting diplomats or other assets. And, on top of that, they've got ridiculous rules of engagement they have to follow, and their own helicopters being shot out of the sky.

You make the call. But if you choose the media you're a fucking dumbass.

What a bunch of privileged limousine liberals and campus commies. Grow up kiddies.

The world as we know it has been continually formed by warfare.
Brave men make a stand and fight.
Pukey little mouthy piles of maggot infested, slime covered shit, like yourself, amount to nothing for you stand for nothing of importance.
Peace at all costs?.......tell that to English men and women that experienced 'The Blitz'.
Tolerant of other religions/races/whatever? Tell that to the Muslim Extremist that is getting ready to torture you, burn you alive or saw your head off in front of a video camera simply because you are an Infidel.
The Men of Blackwater are primarily America trained Operators with Special Forces back grounds, assigned to protect American lives that are trying to stop the wholesale slaughter of Sunni versus Shite(something they have been doing for centuries).
The Men of Blackwater are men that put their ass on the line so mouthy morons like yourself can set back in their air-conditioned comfort and talk about 'real men' on keyboards over the ethers.
You are not worthy to eat Blackwaters shit!
Zour Daddy should have slapped the living snot out of your disrespectful head long ago, you worthless little fucks.
Jarhead Out!

I can't believe the ignorance and lack of real information that is being spouted here. Some of you sound as if you have never served your country for one day and have no life experience sans making out with your same sex liberal freshmen composition teacher at the hippy college you attend (spot on). Maybe you should wear out a few more Birkenstocks before you form another idiotic opinion on the warriors of Blackwater.

Of course you can keep spouting off your ill-informed bullshit unchecked because of the men and woman currently on active duty and the ones that came before them.

I doubt many of you hippies could stand to serve one year of military service. If someone tried to blow me up, I’d come out shooting too. Blackwater has a playbook and a set of rules they go by. I have several friends in the organization and they are not knuckle dragging barbarians like you pimply faced teens are making them out to be.

Why don’t you guys go do something FOR your country instead of just utilizing the rights that guys in Blackwater and the rest of the military are helping to keep on the books? Or you can just keep smoking weed and being programmed by the liberal machine that is America’s college education system. I should know as I endured 4 years of it to become a commissioned naval officer so that I could actually SERVE my country. Service…a simple but meaningful word. Your great grandfathers are rolling over in their graves.

Liberals don't want the US to win. It is bad for their politics, and it makes them feel good about themselves.

I find it completely amazing that these anti US liberals hate their own country so much and won't admit it. Blackwater killing terrorists, got to stop them. Troop surge working, got to stop that. Because they do not want us to win the war.

Please enlighten us dirty hippies about the following:

1. By what measure do chickenhawks like Dick "other priorities" Cheney, George "AWOL" Bush, Mitt "I'm busy being a missionary in France" Romney, and all the other draft-dodging hypocrites in the G.O.P. embody the blessed, manly virtues of war-mongering you so admire? Is sending other people's kids into war (regardless of how ill-conceived and unnecessary) enough to prove your mettle as a patriotic alpha male?

2. Why did George W. Bush start the war in Iraq?

heh, i'm glad i came back to this thread. who picked this one up, ace of spades? and you boys are all serving where, exactly? the army's upped the limits, even you older Hard Core types can still join up.

really, the homoeroticism is just making me laugh and laugh. "the Men of Blackwater?" /giggles/ your manlust is showing there, honey. better go wank off to some rambo movies, k? because your heroes are dying for a bunch of chickenshit closet cases. who laugh at people like you, when they're spending your taxdollars on hookers and limos.

they'd join the Army, so they could serve their country with honor.

Instead, as mercenaries, they're just in it for the bucks.

Hence the extreme overcompensation and rage we see in our friend Jarhead.

And I don't doubt for a minute that Blackwater has a playbook--all major corporations do. The Iraqis don't seem to think much of the plays, though. And last I checked, they were a putatively sovreign nation.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

1. I admire the virtue of voting for the war, before you vote against it. Hillery along with a lot of Democrats voted for the war. The left wing of this country is responsible for this war too.

2. Saddam started the war. He made the choice to not let the weapon inspectors back in. If he did he would still be in power.

Thank you for responding, plumber. Your comment is very important to us. Please do not hesitate to comment again.

UPDATE However, let me briefly engage. Your first second point can be easily refuted from the historical record; I won't bother to do that.

There's substance to your second first point, if you confuse the Beltway Dems with the left (and if you confuse us with the left*). However, the blogosphere, of which I am a part, called Bullshit on the war from the beginning and every step of the way, and the only thing we were wrong about was the depth and perversity of the bullshit. I agree it's a problem for many Democrats that they bought into Bush's lies on the war, and buy into the imperial project generally, but that's not our problem.

NOTE I'm not sure Corrente is "of the left," partly because I'm not sure the categories have any meaning any more, and partly because this morning we've been called out by both a Blackwater mercenary or wannabe, and by a pro-Jena 6 commenter. Guess that puts us in the Moderate middle. Haw.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

1. Saddam did let the weapons inspectors back in.

2. The IAEA said he had no nukes, and no facilities that could even enrich uranium for nukes.

3. Bu$hie Bunnypants told the inspectors (and everyone else) to leave Iraq some days before he got his war on.

You paid trolls should really bother catching up on your facts before you set yourself up for ridicule.

You know, many of us aren't resting until your Company bosses are in prison for a very long time.

With 75% of the American public now against your profitable dust-up in Iraq and fighting your attempt to expand it into Iran, I'd say it's possible your days are numbered, soldier of misfortune.

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

... Plumber's first point?

Oops.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Please try again.

1. Your comment first dodges my question like a Young Republican squirming out of what Bush calls the "defining conflict of our generation." But I will indulge your new topic by noting that there was a difference between giving the President the authority to intimidate Saddam Hussein into better compliance with the U.N. resolution, and the decision to begin bombing after that show of strength was plainly successful, and also using falsified evidence to rationalize the war (conflating Iraq with 9/11, Colin Powell's lie-fest, etc.), and to conduct it in a completely boneheaded way (ignoring detailed State Department analyses, sending too small a force to manage the occupation, turning two blind eyes to war profiteering, etc., etc.). The original question is why you grant that all-important warrior cred to a gaggle of draft-dodging chickenhawks.

2. As Lambert noted, the record is quite clear that this is untrue. UN weapons inspectors were on the ground in Iraq, with unprecedented access, at the time Bush told them to evacuate so he could begin bombing.

I think you meant that Plumber's second response can easily be refuted, as you said before the edit.

Saddam had the chance. Comply with UN resolution 1441 or face the consequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Resoluti...

If George Bush tricked the Democrats, the Democrats need to step down from office. Instead they are running for President, saying the village idiot tricked me.

Why is no one protesting against Iran now? Stop the war with Iran before it starts. Iran's actions are pushing us into another war. Just blame Bush, it is easier.

And your friends NUNYA, JARHEAD and GOTCHA should be bleached off your underwear, before they give you a pustulent infestation.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

You and I both know that Bush didn't attack Iraq because of WMD inspections.

During the run-up to the war, UN inspectors went to the very places Powell cited and there were no weapons there. There are numerous reports from key intelligence figures that the Bush and Blair administrations "sexed up" the evidence, refused to listen to admissions from the CIA that the WMD claims of Curveball, the Niger-yellowcake story, and so on were frauds, etc., etc.

And for the second time, you've dodged the first question entirely.

Do you ever stop and wonder why you don't answer questions directly and honestly? Could it be that the facts don't match the rhetoric?

I served my time in the Infantry putting my life on the line for this country and was released due to a service connected disability that changed my life and career choices forever.
I am older than the Army's upped age limit and would not be returned to active due to the disability anyway......
But, since 9-11-01, I left one career to begin contract work in Security do to my part for America. In the last 6 years, I have sweated in intense heat, shivered for hours in intense cold, stayed awake all night, entered Methlabs, been rained on, handcuffed drug-dealers, tagged car thieves and check fraud rings, apprehended a repeat offender Felon on Meth, backed up my local PD, served as a Disaster Operations volunteer, been screamed at, spit on, assaulted(I assault back), hunted badguys and bled. Soon I'll be watching the Border in the middle of the night, doing my part to ensure safety for this country.
So, what have you done to serve your country, ever??
Blackwater operators have served their country and still continue to do so. The paycheck is better, but the company is run by American's to serve American interests.
I doubt any of them would 'hire out to the highest bidder'.
Man Lust? You have no clue about the respect and admiration between Brother's At Arms who have seen and done shit that would give most nightmares. We endure hardships that you cannot even begin to comprehend safe in your little hole of opinion and judgement.
Reason for the War? Perhaps to attempt to stop the rampant rise of fundamental islamic extremist that have no problem killing inocent men, women and children anywhere, anywhen in the world. Maybe it started long ago, when Fundamentalist took over Iran and have since engaged and supported in acts of terror globally. Maybe most Americans have there heads so far up their ass, focused on their little world they have not seen or acknowledged it because they are being forcefed a slanted version of the 'news' tainted by liberal bullshit that is designed to control you like the herd sheep you are.
Your mental masterbation does not impress me. It is sickening on one hand and yet funny as hell on the other. Enjoy your pathetic circle jerk as you push meaningless hot air through rapidly flapping lips and stroke each others delusions.........
The thoughts of mediocre minds with more mouth than balls really does not concern me........
I got better things to do.
Jarhead returns to hunting.

You'd think a real Marine would know the difference between jerk off techniques and a blowjob. Talk about pathetic overcompensation!

This thread really did bring 'em out of the woodwork, didn't it? Interesting to see the, er, calibre of supporters that Blackwater has.

NOTE That there's anything wrong with either, of course.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Your explanation for the war, though common, is ludicrous:

Perhaps to attempt to stop the rampant rise of fundamental islamic extremist that have no problem killing inocent men, women and children anywhere, anywhen in the world.

Iraq was a rare secular country in the Middle East, and its actions were severely curtailed by the post-Desert Storm sanctions.

Thanks to Bush's invasion, it's now a hotbed of sectarian terrorism, and it's inspired a whole new branch of Al-Qaeda.

I guess we dirty hippies are too stupid to see the benefits of that.

You plainly have no problem with the killings of thousands upon thousands of innocent people who have died in Iraq since the invasion. Why do you begrudge others such fulfilling entertainment?

Ick. Goes to show.

This thread really brought 'em out.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

I too served in my country's military, did my time and have had a long career as a leo afterward. what have you kids done?
there's nothing like arguing with delusional, spoiled children.

I thought things were going so well, that we could divert resources from there to start a new war totally unrelated to, what do you call it, reality?

Besides, when you talk down the success of our mission, you're siding with the terrorists. Isn't that how it works?

1) We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. There were and are much more significant places where Al Queda found shelter, and continues to do so.

2) Al Queda was not in Iraq in any significant numbers before the war.

3) BUT, they are NOW. The current war in Iraq has drawn them out of the woodwork. And not just "Al Queda in Iraq", but also Iranian agents who are known supporters of Hezbolah and responsible for much of the terrorism of the late 70's, 80's and early 90's.

We truly ARE fighting them over there. And we are killing or capturing them on a daily basis. Iraq has become the roach motel of Islamic terrorism.

And the private contractors are working under strict guidelines to help in that effort. They are pulling routine guard duties, riding with supply convoys and guarding diplomatic envoys in order to free up our trained and disciplined military personnel to work on the front lines of this war.

Those "mercenaries" are why there isn't a draft. They are why you are sitting comfortably on campus spouting hate for our brave men and women instead of burning your draft cards on the campus commons and running to Canada.

Most of those "mercenaries" have been recruited directly from the ranks of our military. They understand the importance of their mission and they follow strict "Rules of Engagement", R.O.E. They are not heartless killers running around shooting people for fun. The standard ROE in Iraq pretty much reads "Don't fire unless fired upon."

Have you sent this comment/question to Dick Cheney or the other aforementioned chickenhawks, who send our troops to kill and die in irrational, ill-planned missions after having skipped out of service themselves (while cheerleading the equally irrational, ill-planned war in Vietnam)?

I too served in my country’s military, did my time and have had a long career as a leo afterward. what have you kids done?
there’s nothing like arguing with delusional, spoiled children.

Of course you have, because to do otherwise would be hypocritical.

I really don't know why you're so defensive about it.

Of course, I did pay for your education, but if you want to use my tax money to cash in, then have at it, say I! Conservative values in action!

Assuming you're really a mercenary, instead of a mercenary wannabe off some gaming forum, or something.

Great argument on the draft, although the real answer is don't let losers like Bush get involved in stupid wars to begin with, and then you won't need a draft either. Or trillion dollar roach motels.

Oh, and let's remember the Conservative definition of hate: Accountability.

"On campus," WTF? You think this is still the 60s? Gawd. Smarter trolls, please.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Vastleft, to answer your question about proving my "mettle". I was discharged from the military well before 9/11. Due to regulation changes and after over a year of trying, I was able to get back into the Army Guard.

The WMD's that were found, can be seen here.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar...

http://armed-services.senate.gov/statemn...

To further answer your question. I don't think anyone should bestow warrior status on that draft dodging chicken hawk Bill Clinton. No blood for blow jobs.

When you are sitting here, typing up your idealistic anti war babble, form some secure and technologically equipped corner of a home that would be a palace in many of the countries being discussed here, try and remember who's blood bought you that right.

Liberty has, is, and will always be bought with the sacrifices of noble men.

The little girl that is forced to wear restricting and humiliating clothes, is abused physically, sexually, and morally, and is treated like a 3rd class citizen in all things in the lands of our enemies... She doesn't get to use the internet.

Just because you don't see them prowling the streets, and sweeping them free of boogy men late at night. Just because the tower is too far away for you to see the sentinals who watch over you, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Your freedom to dissent, and your liberty, are not "bought and paid for"... the price is paid daily, weather you know it or not.

That's "whether." Too stupid.

If mercenaries had any honor, they'd stick with the Army and defend little girls that way. Instead, they go for the big bucks, and a bunch of 'em end up defending little girls by shooting civilians. In the back. Just sayin'.

I won't bother to shoot down the pathetic global security link; 500 obsolete chemical weapons, and for that we spend a trillion dollars and lose thousands of lives? Shit, Rummy should just have written Saddam a check for them when we was over there selling 'em poison gas, and saved us all a lot of trouble.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/w...

We've been at war with the extremists for a long time. And every time we've turned the other cheek, they've only seen it as an invitation to slap the other one.

Personal attacks are often used by those with no other valid arguments regarding the topic at hand.

"Just Sayin'."

honeyboy, if we have been at war so long with the extremists, which of your vocabulary words means shaking their hands and selling them weapons (and sending them birfday cake) while we're at war with 'em?

You can do it! Think ... starts with T ...

their nefarious schemes interrupted, it has been (apparently) police forces which have effected the capture of the miscreants and the aobrtion of the dire plots.
Now it is true that the police of the so-called 'free world' are and have alarmingly more and more become indistinguishable from 'regular' military either in their mein toward the citizenry and/or in their garb, equipment, and apparati. But except for that poor bastard brazilian into whose pan the Brits pumped 6 or 7 9mm rounds on the Tube a couple of years ago, the actual civilian casualty list is much smaller than that being extorted in Iraq. And the efforts have been, if the state propagandists are to be believed at all, far more effective.

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

What does that mean? What sort of analytical category is that? One of the salient features of the Iraq Clusterfuck has been the complete inability to define who the enemy really is--it didn't always used to be that media creation, "AQI"--which makes it difficult to define what victory means.

Unless, of course, by extremists you mean, well, us.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

(mas o menos): A capitalist will sell you the rope that'll hang him.

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

It's called "politics of convenience" or "enlightened self-interest".

The US provided arms to Afghanistan in their war with the Soviets. A conflict which helped to bankrupt the Soviet government and bring about the end of the Cold War.

It also brought about the rise of the Taliban, gave credibility to Osama Bin Ladin who was one of the leaders during the war, and much of the original Al Queda were trained by CIA and special forces operatives during the war.

It was only two years later that Iraq invaded Kuwait, and Bin Ladin expected the Saudi government to ask him to deal with it, like he'd dealt with the Soviets. When the Saudis turned to the US and the UN instead, he was insulted.

----------------------

Or maybe you mean how we supplied Iraq with weapons in their war against Iran, because Iran was officially an enemy of the US after they stormed our embassy and held our officials hostage. Which is all because the CIA helped overthrow the precious leadership that created the power vacuum that the Shah stepped into.

------------------------

Or maybe you want to talk about how Hezbolah made a practice of hijacking aircraft and a cruise ship throughout the late 70's and 80's because of our support of the state of Isreal, who we continue to support with billions of dollars worth of aide and weapons.

Yes, I know my history.

Go upthread, bill. The words you want to search on are "You’re a turd in my opinion." Hint: They didn't come from a blogger here.

Frankly, I had no idea this thread would generate so much controversy. The notion that heavily armed mercenaries, unrestrained by any form of law or regulation, should probably not be shooting civilians in a war zone--at least if we hope to win the hearts and minds of the people, haw--would seem to me to be fairly unexceptionable. And worse, these Blackwater clowns are shooting them in the back. In front of a police station. Stupid, or what?

But what would I know? I'm "on campus," instead of being a Cheetohs-stained gamer wannabe mercenary!

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Here is the House Armed services press release to confirm The WMD report.

http://armedservices.house.gov/comdocs/s...

Suppressed by the liberal media. Saddam could have gave up the weapons, and he would have still been in power.

No one answered my question on how the village idiot tricked all the smart people running for President.

While we are at it where is John Kerry's plan to get us out of Iraq? I remember him saying he had one, a few times.

to give our youth some respect, morals, ethics and the choice to face life or runaway to hide behind lofty words and half-baked opinions in some safe sanctuary to armchair quarterback and insult the people that have chosen to stand up for their beliefs and keep them safe from the harm they are to blind to see(how do you get your head so far up your ass anyway? Some new form of Yoga?).
This war has been going on along time. Iran isloated and secular? Somebody recall the Marine Barracks bombing in 1983 in Beruit?
Iran backed Hezbolla. 24 years ago. Less than four years after the Extemists took power. Hmmmm.
And it will continue for along time, because the Extremists are not just gonna stop their Jihad because they are tired of killing, controlling and dominating people. It is their 'mission from God'.
Obviously, these 'people' are set on their path........personally I don't care. One has that lovely statement at the bottom 'We are all gonna die'. Yes indeed, life is sexually transmitted terminal disease.
Since IF is a given, it is a matter of WHEN, WHERE and HOW.
Fortunately, I will not be counted amongst these whimpering cowards and their empty words.
Paging Dr. Rectalenchephalectomist....you are desperately needed to save this country!
Jarhead

Intellectual dwarves...

To the Battlements, men! Taunt them!
Go and boil your bottoms under a silly person!!!
I fart in your gneral directions...your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries...

oh yeah well you like cock HOHOHOHOHOHOHO EAT THAT SHIT UP

I'm rooting for you to reach the Mendoza line.

Alas, you answered the wrong question again. I'm not asking how you earned your bona fides (but thank you for your service). I'm asking how all those chickenhawk Repubs earned the respect accorded to macho war heroes.

BTW, calculating though it was, Clinton thought that dodging the draft would damage his political prospects, so he gave up his deferment. Unlike Dick "other priorities" Cheney.

Also, you might want to tell G.W. Bush about those WMDs. Here's what he said in 2006:

Now look, part of the reason we went into Iraq was -- the main reason we went into Iraq, at the time, was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn't, but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction.

What part of "a fuckwitted President started a mismanaged war against the wrong country, and it doesn't honor our troops to pretend it was a good idea" don't you understand?

Will you look at the page after you press Submit, and if your URL throws off the sidebar and makes the whole blog look stupid, take 10 seconds to fix it?

Here's the URL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs

Please return to your regularly scheduled troll stomping.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Because with the military constituted as it is, we're asking for a Praetorian Guard. I don't take that position, because I wouldn't be subject to it.

Certainly a draft is preferable to mercenaries. If the state doesn't have the monopoly of violence, we might as well just privatize everything. The Justice Department -- though Bush has gone a long way toward doing that.

Jarhead, one thing you may not realize is that at least among bloggers of my age (not at all "on campus") one thing that totally pisses us off about Bush and Iraq is that the Clusterfuck he created abuses the military. I'm anti-heroic in my attitudes, but I know history well enough to know that war and the valourous is sometimes needed. You should never waste soldier's lives (see, Chateaux generals in World War I) but to waste the lives of soldiers who are volunteers is just heinous. Fine, maybe you don't know the tactics in advance, so the armor controversy started out over-rated. But when soldiers have to buy their own armor, or when a small town raises the money for the armor, and then there's no recognition of that, let alone reimbursement, that's shameful. It's dishonorable. Or subverting the chain of command by using nods and winks to authorize torture at Abu Ghraib and then holding nobody up the chain of command accountable. That's dishonorable. And on and on and on and on. Leaving the oil aside, the whole Iraqi thing reminds me of nothing so much as Gallipoli (with the exception that Gallipoli was the Brits to lose, which they did, and there was never a prayer of us winning at all, which the entire blogosphere called its shot on, big time.)

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

How did the DeVos connection go unnoticed by me so long!!?!

There's some fun facts regarding certain Chattavegas sleestaks that happen to be involved in DoD contracting, selling Amway, and happen to run the backbone for the GOP through their server in the basement of the old Pioneer Bank bldg.

If that DeVos connection you our goateed hipster friends you just made is real... Can you give a link?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

His wife at least sells Amway, if you look up a certain Mr. President's history, he used to roam the country peddling crap until his background on bankruptcy and software landed him in Chatta town and he emerged as President or CEO after the failed streaming video company when tits up. I doubt there is any stories linking him to Amway, but it comes from his neighbors. (Yes Mr. Sleestak we've been asking around the neighborhood about you). Oh, and in case anyone is confused, this isn't the guy who has visited your site, but the other guy that runs the servers and domainnames.
-- "I can tell immediately how it was received -- whether it was opened, forwarded, or discarded. We have code in the e-mail that shows me."

Commies like you turn my stomach, have you ever had a thought of your own? Or are you too busy listening to marxist propaganda?

Do you realize the people you are so quick to defend won't recognize your rights as a human being because your a woman? If I told you to go the kitchen and make sammiches you'd cry afoul. But the muslim extremists can cut wimmenz naughty bits off, or make them cover their faces and you think that is alright.

Vastleft, I am glad you liked that turn around, but it's accurate. I don't think that anyone has been given "macho war hero" status. The underlying point in my post was that other Presidents have went to war who had little to no military experience and were considered leaders not heroes. Wilson in World War I and Roosevelt in World War II come to mind. Remember that Clinton ran from Somalia, bad war time leader. And we still have troops in Bosnia. Blood for blow jobs is accurate.

Calling this war Bush's war is a cop out. If he is "fuck-witted" how did he outsmart all the Democrats who started this war? To be true to your convictions, Hillery and John Kerry need to step down now, if they were tricked. Again, where is Kerry's plan? He is still drawing a pay check is he not?

... can't have a disagreement with a woman without calling her the c-word and "slut." At least they're deeply concerned abut the treatment of women in Afghanistan (but not so concerned that they objected when our resources were redirected to a country that posed no threat and was the least relevant place in the Middle East to attack if you wanted to stamp out religious fundamentalism).

Such things don't matter when you are a gallant and chivalrous knight!

Well, at least they're numerate, presumably...

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

chickenhawks:
I am a veteran of the USAF, 4 years, Sept 21, 1964-Aug 31, 1968. I won as much rank I could in the time I was in: e-4. If I'da re-upped, they'da given me e-5 the day I signed the papers. I have an honorable discharge and earned the marksman's medal, the good conduct medal, the vietnam service medal, and a presidential unit citation. I got shot at and missed, shit at and hit.
Immediately upon separation, I entered university, and joined the VietNam Veterans Against the War. I saw more action there.
Yup, I'm a dope-smokin' old hippie; but one who can shoot the eye out of a mouse at 100 yards with a rusty, old armory .30 cal. carbine.
So, if you haven't served your country in any capacity, and you want to abuse me for critical of the clusterfuck and the clusterfuckers when I have done so, with honor, permit me to invite you to suck my runny shit through a flavo-straw.
That is all.
A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

chickenhawks:
I am a veteran of the USAF, 4 years, Sept 21, 1964-Aug 31, 1968. I won as much rank I could in the time I was in: e-4. If I'da re-upped, they'da given me e-5 the day I signed the papers. I have an honorable discharge and earned the marksman's medal, the good conduct medal, the vietnam service medal, and a presidential unit citation. I got shot at and missed, shit at and hit.
Immediately upon separation, I entered university, and joined the VietNam Veterans Against the War. I saw more action there.
Yup, I'm a dope-smokin' old hippie; but one who can shoot the eye out of a mouse at 100 yards with a rusty, old armory .30 cal. carbine.
So, if you haven't served your country in any capacity, and you want to abuse me for critical of the clusterfuck and the clusterfuckers when I have done so, with honor, permit me to invite you to suck my runny shit through a flavo-straw.
That is all.
A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

plumber:

1. If the wingers on talk radio hadn't been calling us traitors and cowards for thirty years, and if the Republicans hadn't taken down Max Cleland by painting him as an AQ sympathizer, I might have some sympathy for some sort of return to civility on military service by elected officials. But Bush himself claimed “macho war hero” status with his codpiece-enabled strut under the Mission Accomplished banner, about which the SCLM proceeded to have a massive mancrush. Bush then went ahead and funded smears against an actual veteran--even granting every Swiftboat charge against Kerry, at least he served--while strenuously obfuscating his own record. FDR, at least, used no such tactics. So if the chickenhawks in the Bush administration are having a cup of poisonous discourse forced down their throats, I, for one, couldn't be happier. They mixed it themselves.

2. Personally, I don't think Bush is fuckwitted at all. I think he's a very smart man, though not at all intellectual, who has managed to achieve big goals he has set for himself: Destroying the Constitution and replacing it with authoritarian rule, looting billions from the public purse for his buddies, polluting the Justice Department and the Supreme Court with party operatives, leaving his successors with disasters on every side to cope with, and then getting away clean. It's worked out well for him.

3. The war surely is Bush's war. He had it in mind from September 12 on, and did whatever was needed to bring it about.

4. I agree 100% that Hillary Clinton and great parts of the Democratic Party are part of the problem, if that is your point mentioning Kerry and Clinton. It's not my job to elect more Democrats. Go over to Kos for that.

5. Finally, what is the point of your "blood for blow jobs" slogan? Shit, if somebody gave Bush a blow job, he'd be a happier man, and we could impeach him. I'd call that a win-win situation.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Woody, thank you for your service. To bad you did not make a point. Good luck with your drug problem.

Wasn't using Blackwater part of Kerry's plan?

Lambert doesn't give a flying fuck about John Kerry.

(See point #4, supra. (You didn't need to repeat this part.))

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Come on, you really think surrounded by Rove, Gannon, and the young guy from Texas (what's his name) Bush hasn't gotten any blowjobs.

Slow your roll. WTF?!

That's the young guy from Texas, intranets?

Intranets, you're assuming Bush is a top, right? Why?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

apparently. I think it must be the exposture to all that lead. Dulls the wits, the doctors tell us.

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

Rumsfeld says its harmless, as do all your Dear Leaders, and the kids who actually have to serve in Iraq breathe its dust every day, and sleep next to the rounds containing it every night...

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

Lambert:

1. Political dissent built this country. Being able to freely debate politics is what makes this country great. I don't think any one is a Traitor unless they plan on attacking our country. If more political dissent was directed towards Iran, the next war might not start.

Both sides used dirty politics, Dan Rather (have a job) comes to mind.

2. Bush inherited the Al-Qaeda problem.

3. Calling it Bush's war is a cop out. The corrupt UN made billions off the oil for food program and run up to war. Our elected representatives voted for war and then changed their minds after the troops were on the ground. If anything it is their war.

I like that come back (pun?) on the blood for blow jobs.

Woody, thanks for your service, next time can I have a reacharound?;-) If the politicians didn't try and run the war, and the corporate monkeys weren't trying to milk it for all it is worth, and the average citizen would be more worried about protecting our country than Osama's feelings this would have been over along time ago.

Armys were made for blowing shit up and killing people, not nation building. As far as Sarah goes, I hope she cries her eyes out. I hope it makes you stronger, next time at least rethink your position before claiming to be an expert before you learn all the facts.

Xenophon, English not your first language? I have no clue as to which droids you speak of bruder.

Hugs and kisses,
The Hermannator

Anytime you want a reach around, stop on by. Tell 'em the guy under the stairs sent you.

Calling 'em as you see 'em isn't enough. We can do the personal abuse thing, if that's the game you want to play, but if you don't want to play that game, you need to support your position with evidence and reasoning.

Je repete: We on what you guys are pleased to call the left called our shot on Iraq when nobody else did: We knew "the politicians" (Bush et al) would fuck it up, though we didn't know how badly, and we knew right away that what followed would be a total Clusterfuck as well, when the only building Bush had guarded was the oil ministry. It's not just that armies aren't made for nation building, it's that Bush threw away all the other plans for nation building in favor of whatever ideology the twenty-somethings brought over in their knapsacks from the Heritage Foundation, on their way to "losing" $8.6 billion dollars, abolishing the rule of law, destroying the infrastructure, and turning the country into a free market, uh, free fire zone for mercenaries and feuding sects of religious fanatics.

As for the corporate monkeys, the biggest one, I imagine, is Halliburton, and another one would be Republican contributor and Christianist Blackwater, last seen shooting civilians in the back in front of a police station. Is that stupid, or what?

Seems to me like we're more in agreement than not. How do you feel about Bush abolishing Constitutional government, anyhow? Or are you in favor of authoritarian regimes?

Back to the personal abuse, 'cause you know you want it:

"As far as Sarah goes," she doesn't have time to mash your shriveled little testes to jelly right now -- before you ask, she has served in the military too -- but maybe later. Something for you to look forward to, n'est c'est pas? Check back soon.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Not McClellan, I almost included him in the list. Hernandez or Martinez, I think his 'nickname' is Izzy or something.

I never did get straight answers to my questions. As we say in gay-commie-terrorist-lovin'-America-hatin' Paree, quelle surprise!

2. Bush inherited the Al-Qaeda problem.
No, Bush was supported by, slave to, and partner of the Saudi influence and his Daddy's rich friends. When your Saudi buddies bail you out of every single incompetent blunder, you start losing the ability to view them impartially. Things like allowing the whole bin Laden family leave the country, and listening to Bandar Bush sweet whispers in your ears, and doing Saudi bidding in spite of the risk to American lives and prosperity (like invading Iraq).

3. Calling it Bush’s war is a cop out.
Who's war is it? Who cherry picked the intel they wanted to paint a false picture? Who put his lying face in front of the cameras over and over and over and over again and kept repeating nuclear mass destruction weapons of nucluler WMD 9/11 nuculer bioweapons all gonna die mushroom clouds.

Yes, it's time to wheel out the big guns! Or whatever....

2. Bush inherited the Al-Qaeda problem.

My, how soon we forget.... Remember when Clinton targeted an AQ pharmaceutical factory and all the Republicans started screaming "Wag the Dog"? Remember when Clinton's terror advisor, Richard Clarke, with his "hair on fire" about AQ, tried to get a meeting with Condi for months, and they blew him off? Try again, plumber. That dog won't hunt.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

All your bases are belong to us, lambert. Cry to your mommy, don't tell her you call people names on the tubes of the interweb. You talk a big game, but remember son, your the one getting all bent out of shape. I wish I could make up facts too, but around here we call that fiction.

As far as Sarah goes, she's a big girl and can take care of herself. Now go hide behind her skirt. You can't be objective when your mind is clouded by fear and anger.

Always,
The Hermannator

P.S. Wash the sand out of your mangina, it'll make you feel better.

Herr Goering:

I gave you the chance to engage on the plane of evidence and reasoning, but you didn't choose to take advantage. Too bad. Shows your colors. And I had such hopes for you. Typical pale gamer merc wannabe. Sleep tight.

That's "you're" not "your." You'll find that using both hands to type is more accurate...

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

So we forget all the terrorist attacks that happened around the world against us during the Clinton years? That dog wont hunt.

We forget that Clinton and Gore could have stopped 9/11. If he followed their own report.

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/212fin~1.html

The Democrat party cheerleaded us into the Iraq war. The Democrat party misled this country. The Democrat leadership needs to be impeached for starting this war. Why did they vote for this war?
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/useofforce...

To take your second point first, the Democrats, with some honorable individual exceptions, as a party were at best ineffectual and at worst actively complicit in starting the war. And the same at ending it. That's why I'm incandescent. I don't think it makes sense to say they're the same, but we're looking at different components of the same system. (As I keep saying, I'd vote for Hillary over any Republican, because I prefer a sane Caesar to an insane Caligula, but I really don't want an emperor at all.)

However, if you want to impeach the Democrats, I assume, if there's logic to your position, that you want to impeach Bush as well?

To your first point, you need more evidence than a link to a 1997 report entitled "White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security." What do I have to do, read the whole thing? Let's have a quote or a link or something.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Lambert:

Sorry, look at recommendation 1.11 and Chapter three. Chapter three laid out how to prevent the 9/11 attacks in 1997. Never implemented and never a campaign issue. That report was a sad day for America. At least Bill got taken care of.

Hillary got tricked into the last war. What makes you think that she would do any better as President? She might get tricked into bombing Iran. At least she could still blame Bill.

Hermann:

And the press abdicated its responsibilities?

We have a very little political power now. We might be able to stop or at least slow the next Clusterfuck. Back then, not a chance.

And the massive suckitude of the Beltway Dems as an institution--with the exception of some honorable individuals--didn't help.

Incidentally, being able to say "I told you so," having worked with evidence and reasoning to a completely different conclusion than all the authority figures in the Beltway came to, is no small feat. So, I plan to keep pointing out how a lot of so-called yet very well-paid experts were wrong for the forseeable future, thank you very much. I imagine you're one such, so it must grate to have your failings pointed out.

Presumably as a war supporter, you're willing to blame yourself?

NOTE Enough with the make stuff up riff. If you look around the site you'll find plenty of research and a lot of links.

NOTE Oh, Hermann The Cherusker is Hermann the Cherusican? Love to Thusnelda....

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

that makes so many of us "Liberal"?

I think it's cause the Air Force encourages thought, myself.

Glad you made it through, hermano.

I don't get it. Is he doing a parody of a stereotype?

Why is it that commies always got to resort to name calling when they feel cornered or run out of “facts” to quote?

... you’re a half-wit ...a smelly cheese eating surrender monkey frog...

So which is it Goering? Did you run out of "facts"?

Even if you win you're still retarded. The liberal commie tactics employed here are easy to see through. An ounce of fact and pound of opinion doesn't make a winning argument. Do you have proof Blackwater shot innocents in the back? Were you there, did you witness it with your own eyes?

I seem to remember seeing an article about a women over in Iraq that claimed she had bullets that shot her house, funny thing was they were nice shiny brass, not deformed projectiles. Your media ate it up with a spoon. If they won't do the research on little things like that what makes you think they won't gloss over the important shit too?

As far as you freethinkers, you're a dime a dozen. My opinion on Iraq, we should have got permission to fix it the first time. Had the UN disapproved, we should have picked up our toys and headed home. Let them deal with it.

How many freedoms have the liberals demanded that we surrender for the good of the children? Quite a few. Almost as many as we lost to the terrorists that the government wouldn't kill back when they were nobodies. If there is anything history has taught us, it is that procrastinating only makes for a tougher battle later.

later,
The Hermannator

No, I didn't see Blackwater blowing away innocent civilians firsthand. Unlike you, though, I've been in situations where an eyewitness' testimony was the only thing one side, or the other, had in a court case.

Eyewitnesses are the genesis of every tarfu that ever happened in a court case, by the way.

You ever seen a DU round? Damn things are hard, they don't deform the way lead does. Even (yeah) jacketed lead, like you find in M-16 rounds.

What have I asked you to give up for the sake of the children, HTC? Child porn? Closeups of the bullet victim's face in television dramas before 8 p.m. Eastern time?

You poor put upon victim, you.

Picked up our toys and gone home is exactly what George HW Bush did at the end of Desert Storm. Appeared to me to be working fine as far as dealing with Saddam.

Evidently, though, W didn't think attacking us with four airplanes was any reason to doubt the adoration we owed the Saudis, and nor did he have any problem believing he could fix all the world's ills by invading a country even he admits was unconnected to 9-11-01, to the attack on the Cole, to the blown up US embassies in 1998.

'Course, lying, cheating, stealing, blaming others and lying some more comes naturally to "tough guys" who can't even get a gig through the SoF classifieds.

Competent people have a tough enough row to how. Quit "helping."

unless you're scared.

She had 5.56 rounds that hadn't been fired? Show me.

I don't have the time or the inclination to review resumes for a merc outfit. Blackwater's not flying my flag; unfortunately, I can't stop it profiting off my taxes.

Soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guards. They're a different story. They're not in it for the money, mostly, and they're not being treated as veterans deserve, universally.

But, no, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Blackwater. I took an oath, back in the 1970s, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Including hired killers.

to a news story. I followed that up, and guess what?
Yahoo ran the caption then corrected it later, indicating the woman is holding unspent rounds.

Oh, and, just so you don't go there disingenuously, this comparison photo is obviously not only not the same ammunition, it's not the same woman. Different hands, different right eye socket, different chador.

Now since you boys are such experts on weapons, suppose you tell me what US or NATO weapon fires those rounds. 'Cause they're not long enough forward of the casing for an M-16/GAU-5, let alone not jacketed, and one of 'em's definitely the wrong caliber for US small arms. Might work in an AK47. When did we start issuing AKs to US troops?

Woman's claims, according to the news story, are that the rounds were found at /near her home's walls following a coalition forces raid that took place on/about August 16th.

So somebody was reloading or was handling a weapon in sloppy fashion under combat stress and ejected unspent ammo or dropped rounds, if not whole magazines.

Hmm.

Doesn't sound to me like there's any big lie involved here, so what are y'all beefing about?

Oh, right, the kerning's wrong on the casings.

Or something. And junk and stuff.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Here is a better round-up of pictures. And I see someone already posted the Yahoo caption.

Don't they just run photos and the wire service make up their witty captions. I'm not sure the photog or wire service is to blame, and who really cares, they make up everything else in the news. Besides, who knows what the woman really said.

Is this a big deal? Do you think in anyway think that there are NOT hundreds (nee thousands) of Iraqi woman who can point to bullets in their walls? Or inside their sons, daughters, husbands?

It is impossible to tell what those caliber those rounds are chambered in without something to judge the size off. 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 are typically steel cased stuff from Russia or China, there are brass cased rounds available but the steel cased stuff is cheap. I just so happen to have 5.56x45 sitting by the computer, it looks pretty close. It looks pretty close to unspent 5.56x45, 5.45x39 has a longer projectile and is tapered more like 7.62x39. The second pic, not a clue as to what it is, you probably don't either. Again without seeing the headstamp or having something of a known size in the pic it is next to impossible to say what they are.

But there you go again, putting qualifiers on your argument to make it true in a special set of circumstances. The media monkeys were caught spouting off random stuff, and changed their statement. Your willing to shrug it off, if the Republicans did that you'd be crying bloody murder.

hugs and kisses,
The Hermannator

Service........Submitted by Jarhead
Reason for the War? Perhaps to attempt to stop the rampant rise of fundamental islamic extremist that have no problem killing inocent men, women and children anywhere, anywhen in the world. Maybe it started long ago, when Fundamentalist took over Iran and have since engaged and supported in acts of terror globally. Maybe most Americans have there heads so far up their ass, focused on their little world they have not seen or acknowledged it because they are being forcefed a slanted version of the ’news’ tainted by liberal bullshit that is designed to control you like the herd sheep you are.
Your mental masterbation does not impress me. It is sickening on one hand and yet funny as hell on the other. Enjoy your pathetic circle jerk as you push meaningless hot air through rapidly flapping lips and stroke each others delusions………The thoughts of mediocre minds with more mouth than balls really does not concern me……..I got better things to do. Jarhead returns to hunting
******
Reason for War? Perhaps to attempt to stop the rampant rise of fundamental islamic extremist...

That was Sadam Hussein's "perhaps" too.

Maybe it started long ago...

The irony here is too much to leave alone. Obviously "Jarhead" doesn't know anything about the background of the political party the current prime minister of Iraq represents. Nouri al-Maliki (the current Iraqi prime minister) is a member of the Dawa party (meaning the "Islamic Call Party"). Maliki himself lived in exile in both Iran and Syria prior to the overthrow of Sadam Hussein. In Syria Maliki directed the Dawa party Jihad Office. The Dawa party itself is a religious branch of the UIA (United Iraqi Alliance). Another relative of Dawa being the SIIC (Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council) - SIIC, formerly named SCIRI, or the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq - SCIRI's former leader was Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim. These are Islamic religious parties. The Dawa party was founded by Muqtada al-Sadr's uncle Muhammad Baqr al-Sadr. In 1979 Dawa supported the Islamic Revolution Islamic in Iran and subsequently made its headquarters in Iran. It was also classified as a terrorist organization by the US at the time (during US support for Sadam Hussein/iran Iraq war). Likewise during Hussein's crackdown on Dawa party members who threatened the Baathist secular regime. The Dawa party was responsible for the 1983 bombings of the American and French embassies in Kuwait (the Kuwait 17). One of the conditions of the Reagan Iran/Contra agreement for the release of the Iranian hostages was that the Kuwait 17 (Dawa terrorists) be released as well. I'll bet you don't hear much talk about that "deal" around Wingnut Central or the Great Hall of Reagan Worship. Now do ya Jarboy? Nope, I suspect you don't. Ties between Dawa/SCIRI and affiliated parties and Iran run deep and fast. The difference between Dawa and SCIRI is primarily a matter of ideology. Dawa being more inclined to allegience to a collective of Islamic nation states as a whole and SCIRI who holds to the idea that power is invested in the ulema, or power of religious clerics (SCIRI being supported by Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini among others.) In any case each seek to exist within an Islamic (religious state) framework.

The Badr organization (Badr Corps), which you've no doubt heard of (shoor ya have), serves as SCIRI's militia. The Badr Corps are an Iranian born militia. These are the armed militia which Ahmed Chalabi was associated with. You know, Judy Miller's boyfriend, the guy who the Bush White House was so fond of pimping for so long. Chalabi was also a conduit between SCIRI (the shia who love sharia) and all the little impressionable pips in the Pentagon (the war-florists with the rose water and flower tossing stories). Badr Corp memebers (with their close historical relationships to Iran) are all over the so called Iraqi police and security services and well within the Maliki government itself. And that all just scratches the surface.

So there you go Jarhead. There is your so called big "attempt to stop the rampant rise of fundamental islamic extremist". Ironically, the Bush loyalists and their easily impressionable passel of wispy moonbeams have managed to miss the irony in the Dear Leader's glorious crusade to turn Iraq over to any number of Islamic extremists with close ideological and historical ties to Iran. Perhaps if you got your head out of your ass long enough to take a look around at the real world instead of splashing around in your own slanted forcefed dittoworld you'd know this stuff (although i doubt you are smart enough or even courageous enough to even approach that obstacle course). Obviously you have never been in Iraq or you would have some understanding of the complex historical political and religious and sectarian nature of the conflict at hand. You clearly know little about the topic you like to prattle on about. Get you jarhead out of your ass. And wash your fucking lid, before you stink up another comment thread with your greasy asshole scented freshman level ventilations.

*

...for the morons in this thread (god knows there are enough of em) and assuming they can conquer more than two paragraphs:

HERE

The US did not directly intervene, but American jets flew overhead in support of the government security forces. As elsewhere in the south, those Iraqi forces are dominated by the Badr Organization, a militia founded, trained, armed, and financed by Iran. When US forces ousted Saddam's regime from the south in early April 2003, the Badr Organization infiltrated from Iran to fill the void left by the Bush administration's failure to plan for security and governance in post-invasion Iraq.

think of it as home schooling.

*

The picture of the old lady with the ammo is pure enemy propaganda. Everyone can see it is a fake so they add more pictures; give me a break.

A DU round? now that would be a story in itself. It is also not a US military 5.56 round, SS109 has a green tip. I think that round is Iranian.

Farmer, good to see that you know a lot about your preferred government. What is the point of your post? Other than the high opinion that you have for yourself.

Thank you, George Bush for keeping my family safe at home. No terrorist attacks against the US since 9/11. I wish Clinton could say that.

1. Direct questions about relevant issues are sidestepped from beginning to end

2. G.O.P. draft-dodgers are venerated; Democrats who served with distinction are denigrated

3. Ignoring the elephant in the room: the President attacked the wrong country and fucked it up every which way he could -- including squandering taxpayer money on mercenary groups at many times what a soldier or Marine is paid

4. Revising history: pretending that during the Clinton years terrorism was a rightwing fixation and that Clinton is responsible for terrorism that happened on Bush's watch (even though W's and Cheney's antiterrorism task force met ZERO times from 1/20/01 to 9/11/01. No matter how you try to spin it, ZERO is not a very big number)

5. Resorting to hoary, ad hominem attacks (liberals are commie college hippies out of a Dave Berg cartoon). And proving their machismo and concern for women's issues by witty use of words like "slut" and "c--t."

6. Throwing smoke screens by dredging up irrelevant and usually fallacious controversies about minutiae

They've got nothing but bluster and bloodlust going for them. But that's the beauty of "America, Right or Wrong." Being wrong is of no consequence to them.

The essence of the Constitution is to ensure that America is the best country it can be, or at least "more perfect," with the greatest freedoms possible for its people and checks-and-balances to keep us from going off the rails (which includes the amendment process that brought us the Bill of Rights). I don't believe it says, "do whatever the fuck the unitary executive wants, and if makes no sense and doesn't work and kills innocent people and wastes our treasury, just keep doin' it." Or did I just miss that part?

the Company trolls come out of the woodwork, don't they?

This means, of course, the soldiers of misfortune are criminals we should be hitting on more often, since the American public really does hate mercenaries as people who profit from war.

No Hell below us
Above us, only sky

are war criminals?
I have ZERO sympathy for any of 'em.
They took the money. If it kills 'em, tough shit.
That's what you get, if you're a merc.
They trade their claims to human compassion for the Beeg Bucks.
If it kills 'em, no fuukin loss.

btw: I haven't been posting here very long, but is this the biggest trool infestation ever seen here? I mean, there's TWO of 'em.

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

they must pay a lot of money to keep their PR looking good.

"Thank you, George Bush for keeping my family safe at home."
- Thank you Mr. Decider for being so lazy you couldn't meet once in your first nine months in office to discuss foreign threats.
- Thank you Bush for being so inept that people took planes and flew them all over the eastern seaboard without a single fighter jet scrambled.
- Thank you Dumbya for sitting there reading your picture book about the pet goat while American was under attack. Maybe if you didn't sit there for so long trying to spell out them big words and comparing your intellect to 5th graders you could have done something Presidential that day. And, no, your press conference didn't help when you could have been directing NORAD orders.
- Thank you for revoking a great deal of liberties, freedoms, and common sense all in the name of spying, torture, and wiping your ass with our Constitution. Boy, I feel safer knowing that we now live under permanent tyranny and have fascist leaders that rule using.. fear.

1. I have not attacked anyone.

2. Not one of my questions have been answered.

3. The ammo in question was probably Iranian. The story is enemy propaganda.

Here.

4. President Bush was a new President under heavy attack from the left, on all fronts, in the run up to 9/11.

5. Clinton and Gore knew that there was a growing terrorist problem and did nothing. Other than to try to steal the election.

6.What was the Clinton Administration's response to the Cole bombing? Or the Embassy bombings in Africa?

7. I respect the Constitution.

Here's the next graf in the piece he stipulated was required reading, which i take it he meant to prove the need to attack Iran:

In the months that followed, the US-run Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) appointed Badr Organization leaders to key positions in Iraq's American-created army and police. At the same time, L. Paul Bremer's CPA appointed party officials from the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) to be governors and serve on governorate councils throughout southern Iraq. SCIRI, recently renamed the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council (SIIC), was founded at the Ayatollah Khomeini's direction in Tehran in 1982. The Badr Organization is the militia associated with SCIRI.

Get it? Bremer HIRED the "Iranian-trained" Badr army?

hmmmm.

hey, farmer, your cows are waiting...

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

I don't think they're paid trolls; and they differ in quality; plumber actually cited some sources, so there's some basis for discussion.

Personally, I think I'm better at the personal abuse (experience counts) and at the analysis (ditto), so maybe this was a learning experience for them.

This thread reminds me of Iraq: Our gamer mercenary wannabes have ego investment in the thread (sunk costs) so they think they have to keep coming back, but whether they engage at the analytical level or the personal abuse level, they lose. Sad. And, again like Iraq, they don't make an effort to understand their enemy ("on campus," forsooth) so again, of course, they lose.

So, it's hard work dealing with them, but it has to be done, and in a way it's instructive.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

i went back and tried to remove the offending blockquote, but apparently it was too late...

A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

His mouth isn't short, fer gawdsake...

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Woody:

The blockquote didn't throw the width off.

Plumber:

The long link in your comment threw the width off; for whatever reason, the pattern recognizer that turns URLs into links didn't recognize it, so the page got as long as the URL, which was quite long.

Some sites enforce a preview before a comment is submitted, but we don't, because we don't want to put up barriers to people posting. So, please, check the page after you post, and if the post is making the page look weird, go in and fix it. NOTE: Looked OK in Safari, maybe looked OK in IE (I wouldn't know); did look bad in Safari.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

RL calls, so quick responses. Others may chime in ;-)

So far as I can tell, the link that you give on propaganda doesn't support your claim, or you've left out a link in your chain of logic.

On relitigating the Clinton years on terror (part of 5). Nice idea for a post, but I don't have time for it now. I'm sure comparing Bush and Clinton will net out just fine for us, if for no other reason than Clinton actually wants the government to work. Frankly, "Bin Laden determined to strike in US," and "You've covered your ass" (links available) seem likely to trump whatever Clinton failures there are.

You write:

President Bush was a new President under heavy attack from the left, on all fronts, in the run up to 9/11.

That is so deeply bogus. Apparently the "heavy attack" took the form of rolling over for deep tax cuts -- not to mention submitting to Bush v. Gore without argument. Must be some sort of cunning plan.

And you write:

Other than to try to steal the election.

Pure winger projection. And so not on thread.

Bottom line here is that Blackwater's not looking real good here. The massive suckitude of mercenary armies shows, not only Blackwater doing stupid things like shooting civilians in the back in front of a police station but in the quality of the points its defenders make on this thread.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

really. you pretend like you don't know what i'm talking about, but mjs could make a whole song out of the toe-tapping widely stanced reach-around goodness in your comments on this thread. heh.

speaking very seriously, look: many of you are gay. please come out of the closet. you will feel better, and self-hatred, and projected hatred of others, will no longer dominate your life. you can still be satisfied bottoms, plenty of out gay men are tops. but it's really, truly, the age of freedom and light for Us. that is, your world doesn't end when you come out.

i don't know why so many of you are so fearful, today. it's not the 50s anymore, even in small towns. i know who you are, and i'm telling you, you suffer for no reason. just come out. sucking cock is ok, and there are guys who will want you to suck theirs.

as a queer person, i want you to know i say these things with all the compassion, understanding, and pity i can muster. for that is what i have for many of you.

Farmer wasn't speaking on behalf of our going to war against Iran; he was pointing out the total illogic of the assumptions being expressed that those we are supporting in Iraq are a hedge against Iranian influence in the region.

Chicago Dyke:

If that is all that you have got out of my posts, I feel sorry for you.

If that is the only thing that you can come up with to debate my posts, I pity you. But I will defend your right to be gay.

Your life may change when you get through high school.

BTW, you people sound paranoid to think that this is an organized troll attack. How can you debate politics with someone that you agree with? Now that is gay. No offence, Chicago.

Woody,
Farmer's on our side. Really.

Sometimes we have to work to convince/remind him/us of that, but he is.

I like what you did though -- it shows up the danger of cherrypicking quotes just fine.

It's kinda like, if I wanted to, I could cut clips from yesterday's FoxSports video to imply, or hell, even show, that the Redskins beat the Giants. The only thing is, they didn't (thank all the deities, and not just because Clinton Portis is a jerk, but that figures into it too).

These Blackwater defenders we've got around here -- let's just come out and remind 'em what industry lingo uses "blackwater" for.

It's a synonym for sewage.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Real life calls, so I'll have to respond to your 7 items later on.

In the meantime, if you have time, any chance you would actually answer my two original questions?

1. By what measure do chickenhawks like Dick “other priorities” Cheney, George “AWOL” Bush, Mitt “I’m busy being a missionary in France” Romney, and all the other draft-dodging hypocrites in the G.O.P. embody the blessed, manly virtues of war-mongering you so admire? Is sending other people’s kids into war (regardless of how ill-conceived and unnecessary) enough to prove your mettle as a patriotic alpha male?

2. Why did George W. Bush start the war in Iraq?

[I know you've said "WMDs" for question #2. If you're sticking to that, why don't I hear any criticism out of you for Bush getting thousands of our troops and thousands of more Iraqi citizens being killed, and an estimated $1-2 Trillion of American taxpayers' money being spent on a mistake. Again, Bush himself said re: Saddam having WMDs, "we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn’t...." Your only criticism is for the Democratic side of the bipartisan consensus in Congress that gave him the latitude to conduct the showdown as he saw fit. On lefty blogs like Correntewire, you'll see a lot of criticism for the role Democrats played in that. But that's only part of the story, and it's the cart and not the horse that drove us into this mess.]

Vastleft:

1. Calling Bush and Cheney "chicken hawks and war mongers" just does not work for me. We are at war, not war mongering. We need to win this war, and I admire a war time leader who will make tough decisions for the good of the country, regardless of his prior service.

I really don't think that you are trying to say that you want only former military people to run for office.

It is not good for this country if we cut and run from this war. The only way to peace is victory.

2. Why did the war start? The threat of WMD's and the fact that Saddam was our enemy and he had to comply or be taken out.

Where are the WMD's, I provided a link to some. I think the rest are hidden or in another country.

But....What really caused the war over the WMD's, was the corrupt UN oil for food scandal. UN officials and other countries made billions off of us. By making us believe that Saddam was a larger problem, then he really was.

Right now we are fighting a proxy war against Iran in Iraq. If we loose, we loose big.

Don't fool yourself, this war is a lot bigger than Iraq.

I guess 'the farmer' has as short an attention span as his foul
Submitted by Woody--Tokin Librul on Mon, 2007-09-24 09:25.
Here’s the next graf in the piece he stipulated was required reading, which i take it he meant to prove the need to attack Iran:

well you took it wrong. get your head out of your bong-hole.

Leah can explain it to you above: See: Submitted by leah on Mon, 2007-09-24 12:14.

got it? ok then.

*

did you use the word "loose" on purpose? heh. i pity the grey lord, we get all the good ones here.

being serious: define "win in iraq," would you? what does that look like, specifically? do we kill all the shias? jail them? send them to iran? do we keep 000s of thousands of our GIs over there, to make sure they stay "good?" how much are you willing to spend? for how many years do you think we should fight? what is the strategy for "victory" and where is the proof that we're on the path to it?

if you're honest with yourself, you will see that regardless of the merits of starting the war, the mess of the occupation has created conditions where we are literally the last people on the planet who can bring about peace and security in iraq. bottom line: there is more violence where are troops are, and more attacks directed at our troops than any other group. we are not wanted there, each day we stay we are only more hated, and "victory" over the people we're supposed to be helping is well, kind of a stupid idea in the first place.

You say:

Vastleft:

1. Calling Bush and Cheney “chicken hawks and war mongers” just does not work for me. We are at war, not war mongering. We need to win this war, and I admire a war time leader who will make tough decisions for the good of the country, regardless of his prior service.

I really don’t think that you are trying to say that you want only former military people to run for office.

It is not good for this country if we cut and run from this war. The only way to peace is victory.

2. Why did the war start? The threat of WMD’s and the fact that Saddam was our enemy and he had to comply or be taken out.

Where are the WMD’s, I provided a link to some. I think the rest are hidden or in another country.

But….What really caused the war over the WMD’s, was the corrupt UN oil for food scandal. UN officials and other countries made billions off of us. By making us believe that Saddam was a larger problem, then he really was.

Right now we are fighting a proxy war against Iran in Iraq. If we loose, we loose big.

Don’t fool yourself, this war is a lot bigger than Iraq.

So from the bottom to the top we agree on one thing. This war is a lot bigger than Iraq. This war is not, however, about spreading democracy or capturing bin Laden. This war is about making the last big oil fields on earth safe for exploitation. This war has been brewing since the Saudis nationalized their fields and OPEC was chartered. Bush's latest policy
initiatives are all about opening nationalized oilfields in the Middle East for international corporations' profit.

We aren't fighting a proxy war against Iran in Iraq, yet.
If it comes to that, we will already have lost. The losses will not just be of "full faith and credit," though. The losses will be very dangerous. This administration and its forebears from 1980 onwards claimed that they did not deal with Iran, were not amenable toward hostage negotiations, etc. etc. etc. Problem 1: Reagan provably signed off on Iran-Contra deals funneling weapons to South America and money to Iran to help prop up its fundamentalist government. Problem 2: Rumsfeld provided Saddam Hussein with the wherewithal to "win" the Iran-Iraq war, right out of US arsenals, regardless of the likelihood of Saddam using some of the most horrible of those weapons on his own people. Problem 3: Saddam's Iraq was a secular country. Women there received far better treatment than they do now in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, any other Muslim country you care to name (including Singapore).
Problem 4: While Saddam Hussein was inarguably a bad man, he was NOT incompetent. Under his thumb, Iraq operated as a nation largely free of the level of street shootings, secret assassinations, IED explosions, lack of utility service and complete chaos that has ensued following Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush's ill-advised, under-manned, poorly-planned March 2003 "shock and awe" campaign.

Regarding the oil for food scandal, where's your evidence? Did Saddam cheat? Of course. Did the US know? Yes. Was that a reason for going to war? No. Did it help prejudice the audience towards war in Bush's pro-invasion PR campaign? Sure. What connection did it have to WMDs? None.

Your link to WMDs fails to convince me, just as the claims failed to convince me in 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. Bush himself joked about not finding WMDs. The war started because Cheney wanted money for Halliburton and Bush wanted to get Saddam. Everything else is a convenient distraction for the US public, possibly including 11SEP01. Niger denied selling yellow cake; Joe Wilson denied that Saddam tried to buy yellow cake in Nigeria; Karl Rove outed Valerie Plame to try to shut down the revelation of the falsity of the yellow cake story; Scooter Libby perjured himself and obstructed justice to cover the connection between Plame's outing and VP Cheney's orders. There were no tubes. There were a few old chemical shells.
There were no WMDs. Saddam had inspectors in Iraq, and they couldn't find anything. Why Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney remained adamant (other than having the receipts from arms sales to Saddam in the Reagan years, and not being able to account for the expenditures of those weapons) that Saddam had WMDs, I'm not sure. My suspicion is convenience; my inclination is habitual, possibly constitutional, mendacity. Where do you think the remaining WMDs were hidden? What country has them now (and, hint hint hint, if there were WMDs available would the Iraqis be using IEDs against Strykers and Bradleys instead of targeting the Green Zone and solving their "invader" problem faster?)?

I don't mind if former military people run for office, or even get elected. I think it SUCKS when people who are elected think they're entitled to throw soldiers at their pet peeves, maiming and killing the best, brightest, and most loyal of Americans' volunteer youth for purposes of profit and dishonesty. So, while I wouldn't say you need to have served in the military to participate in government, I would say you DAMNED WELL BETTER NOT START A WAR if you've never served in combat, because only an idiot wants war to begin with, and only an idiot with a compleat lack of information as well as conscience would instigate war unnecessarily. Note: W is the exception that proves the rule, as he deserted the TANG and wasted the funds expended to recruit, train and equip him in wartime.

Cheney got five deferments. Never served a day in the military, and holds those who did in utter contempt. I have no use for such warmongers. I have no hesitation in calling out their chickenheartedness nor their false position as pro-war "hawks".

You know, if that just doesn't work for you, maybe you ought to enlist.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Chicago Dike:

Other than being gay, what is your plan?

You sound like you have more in common with Al-Qaeda than the republicans.

1. Calling Bush and Cheney “chicken hawks and war mongers” just does not work for me. We are at war, not war mongering. We need to win this war, and I admire a war time leader who will make tough decisions for the good of the country, regardless of his prior service.

I really don’t think that you are trying to say that you want only former military people to run for office.

It is not good for this country if we cut and run from this war. The only way to peace is victory.

Well, starting unnecessary and mismanaged wars does not work for me. We are in a war of whim, and a badly conceived one at that. Turning Iraq from a hemmed-in secular dictatorship into a sectarian terrorist free-for-all is not good policy. It is the largest foreign-policy blunder in our history.

My point is not that only military people should be in office. It's that it's hypocritical to bash Clinton for his lack of service (and give him no credit for his successful mission in Bosnia) and John Kerry (who was doubly heroic in is Vietnam service AND protest) and then to gush over draft dodgers who are making the same mistakes that they hid from in Vietnam.

And speaking of Vietnam, how many young Americans needlessly died because war lovers kept telling us things like "The only way to peace is victory"? There's a wall full of their names in DC.

What really caused the war over the WMD’s, was the corrupt UN oil for food scandal. UN officials and other countries made billions off of us. By making us believe that Saddam was a larger problem, then he really was.

Right now we are fighting a proxy war against Iran in Iraq. If we loose, we loose big.

Don’t fool yourself, this war is a lot bigger than Iraq.

"Fooling yourself" is the operative term. We started a war with 40,000 American casualties and several hundred-thousand Iraqis dead, with millions made into refugees, because of the UN food program! So we can fight a "proxy war" against another country!? WTF, seriously, WTF!?

There is plenty of room for reasonable debate about what the proper exit strategy is from Iraq, but ignoring that it was a devastatingly bad decision to start this war and conduct it this way is an omission that hangs over that discussion at this point.

How come the only thing you have directly answered involves the question of whether or not you are gay? (I know you chose the name "plumber" for a reason.... Is that a subtle message?)

for your pithy response. everyone should have gay sex, it's fun and feels good. so as a plan, i think it's a great one. if everyone in the world openly and joyfully had one or two moments in gay sex, things would be very, very different, and better. also, some of those people would continue to have gay sex, and like themselves better for it. maybe even you.

but love aside, my plan for the war is as follows:

disengage our military from iraq, totally. bring our troops home and care for them properly. spend money on peace talks and work with an arab/ME-led, UN and NATO supported peace team. get the kurds, shias, sunnis, and iranians even, all at the peace table. end all weapons shipments to iraq. support, with money, peacekeepers from a mix of nations to ring iraq, and contain violence and more importantly what's/who is going into it. pull out blackwater and all other contractors. cease construction of all white elephant "bases" being built right now. spend money on iraqi firms who can do the reconstruction, if they want help from US firms give it to them. stop paying this or that cleric to do or say something for the express purpose of using it in US domestic political discourse. spend money on iraqis who can make the oil wells productive, remove US/Western oil companies and give control of revenue to the iraqi people and firms. stop supporting (financially and politically) corrupt expats and cronies in the iraqi "government." spend copious quantities on restoring basic civilization to the iraqi people, but make sure it is actually spent on them and thru iraqi companies and organizations, and not on no-bid, no-real work "jobs" like driving empty trucks back and forth across the desert.

we broke it, we bought it. on that i think we agree. but the military "solutions" haven't, and aren't going to work. iraq is officially a Steaming Mountainheap of Shit, and it's going to be Hard Work to "fix" it, if that is even possible.

is that clear enough for you?

Vastleft:

1. I am enlisted.

2. You say "DAMNED WELL BETTER NOT START A WAR if you’ve never served in combat" I guess you give Clinton a pass for Bosnia. Wilson for WWI and Roosevelt a pass for WWII.

3. WMD attacks in Iraq...here you go

http://www.wmdinsights.com/I15/I15_ME1_C...

4. We have been fighting a proxy war. I could give you a hundred links, but here is one.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar...

5. Oil for food had everything to do with starting the war. You call this a war for oil and greed. Look first at the people who made the money off starting the war, the UN. False or doctored WMD reports kept the sanctions in place and oil for food running.

6. The Saudis are part of the problem.

7. I don't gush over anyone. Troops are still occupying Bosnia.

8. The problem with cutting and running is that these people have the habit of flying planes into our buildings when we are at peace. You can not have a one sided peace. This is something that you all need to learn.

9. Joe Wilson is as big a lair as Michael Moore-food.

intranets:

No one else seems to attempt to answer my questions. I thought that it was a liberal thing to do. Just call people gay. You are gay because you don't like Bush.

and i have met him and i will not take insults to his character on my blog. you cannot prove that he is a liar, and you yourself are skirting that line, with your ridiculous and logically inconsistent assertions about WMDs and suchlike.

call me a bitchy dyke all you want. but don't presume to speak of the integrity of decent people whom you've never met, don't know, and (clearly) can't understand. joe is above petty internet name calling (he reads a lot of blogs and knows what people like you say of him) and it's a testament to the difference between your kind and him that again and again, smear and insult are your main "argument."

just because you may not realize it: and i'm fucking with you, bigtime. because you're so dense. i will tease you about your homoerotic desires all day long, because people like joe wilson have better things to do.

... could be wired directly to the lizard backbrain.

Good to know.

Plumber's oil for food point absolutely pins the bogometer. Kissinger says the war is for our oil supply. Allan Fucking Greenspan says the war is for our oil supply.

And the WMDs pins the bogometer as well. Even Bush given up on the WMDs argument ("It turns out he didn't"). Oops/

I mean, at this point, we're in Who you gonna believe? Me or your lying eyes? territory. Fuck, plumber, if you can't believe Teh Greatest President Eva, who can you believe?

Stop toying with us, plumber. Admit it. You don't seriously believe what your're saying, right? You're just throwing stuff out to see if it sticks, right? Please tell me that's true.

NOTE I notice that the original point of this thread, that mercenaries suck, seems to have secured universal assert from all parties. Mission accomplished!

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

1. I have not attacked anyone.

To your credit, you haven't indulged in the name-calling (other than your clever "Michael Moore-food" riposte), but your opening salvo of "Liberals don't want the US to win" is very much an attack on our patriotism.

2. Not one of my questions have been answered.

I don't have time to do an audit, but I believe that several have. If more of your questions were answered, would you be moved to criticize the administration for a truly historic mistake of epic proportions?

3. The ammo in question was probably Iranian. The story is enemy propaganda.

Here.

I haven't followed that particular all-important story. I'm sure it changes everything.

4. President Bush was a new President under heavy attack from the left, on all fronts, in the run up to 9/11.

Do you really want to go there? You criticize Clinton, who was considered by Pentagon insiders to be "obsessed with Bin-Laden," for inaction, when your brethren spend $70+ million to sift through every detail of his life and yelled "wag the dog" at his every military intervention? Poor widdle Dubya, so hounded by the liberals he had to hide out in Crawford taking a record number of vacation days and was so paralyzed he couldn't do a thing about a memo called "Bin-Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." (or to literally get off his ass when the country was under siege). No meetings, no phone calls, no nothing, just a "you covered your ass" for the messenger. By golly, that's the kind of stuff we need! No doubt he spent that 8 months dreaming of ways to avenge the Cole attack. That must have been it.

5. Clinton and Gore knew that there was a growing terrorist problem and did nothing. Other than to try to steal the election.

Read Richard (Reagan/Bush I/Clinton/Bush II administrations) Clarke's book, he'll tell you otherwise. Oh, wait, he's not covering for Bush II, so he must be a liar.

6.What was the Clinton Administration’s response to the Cole bombing? Or the Embassy bombings in Africa?

Read Clarke's book.

7. I respect the Constitution.

Glad to hear it. So, how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping and imprisonment without habeas corpus?

Comments on your most recent list:

Vastleft:

1. I am enlisted.

2. You say “DAMNED WELL BETTER NOT START A WAR if you’ve never served in combat” I guess you give Clinton a pass for Bosnia. Wilson for WWI and Roosevelt a pass for WWII.

I think you're answering someone else's questions here, not mine.

3. WMD attacks in Iraq…here you go

http://www.wmdinsights.com/I15/I15_ME1_C…

Again, Bush has admitted that Iraq did not have WMDs. Would you call your president a liar in a time of war?

4. We have been fighting a proxy war. I could give you a hundred links, but here is one.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar…

The thought of unleashing a "shock and awe" war, not to mention creating post-invasion conditions that our own ambassador called "Pandora's Box," as a proxy initiative against another nation is about the most despicable thing I've ever heard of.

5. Oil for food had everything to do with starting the war. You call this a war for oil and greed. Look first at the people who made the money off starting the war, the UN. False or doctored WMD reports kept the sanctions in place and oil for food running.

I have not called it a war for oil and greed. I called it a fuck-up of historical proportions to spend $1-2 trillion and countless lives lost and bodies broken to start a disastrous war against a country that wasn't a threat. As long as there was no blowjob, it's all good.

6. The Saudis are part of the problem.

Again, not apropos of anything I've said, but at last we agree on something.

7. I don’t gush over anyone. Troops are still occupying Bosnia.

Probably true, you don't seem to gush. You prefer to rationalize, by calling Bush and Cheney "war time leader[s] who will make tough decisions for the good of the country" and to continue to grasp at straws with war justifications that even Bush wouldn't try to make stand.

8. The problem with cutting and running is that these people have the habit of flying planes into our buildings when we are at peace. You can not have a one sided peace. This is something that you all need to learn.

So, the reason 9/11 happened was that we were at peace? Besides, I thought we were still fighting in Bosnia.

9. Joe Wilson is as big a [liar] as Michael Moore-food.

What a lying bastard, claiming that that Niger yellowcake story was a fake. Hoo-boy, what a whopper! At least he didn't say that health insurance companies suck. Saying that kinda fib'll make your nose grow.

I have an honest question for everyone here. Why, if you hate our president, don't you move to another country? I'm honestly curious. It's not like you can change his mind for him, so why complain? It may be something you don't like that he is doing, but why constantly fight about it?

Another question. You all do know that if you lived in the countries that you want us to stop messing with, and you spoke about their ruler like you are ours, you would all be put to death right?

I was just wondering if you all were aware.

I know I am not as smart as you all, so you don't have to tell me I'm stupid. I just honestly wanted to know what the problem is.

Oh, and if someone states that they are in the military, and you cannot refute that, please treat them as such. It is sad for people to insult the military, especially when they want so bad to bring our troops home.

Is that what a democracy is about? Leaving the country because you don't like the president?

If the U.S. has a completely delusional and inhumane and disastrous policy vis-a-vis a country with a poor record for human rights, we're just supposed to shut up?

And who is insulting the military, other than the people who don't mind them getting maimed and killed in "proxy wars" over food-money fraud?

I liked this better when it was in the original Britneyish:

Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens.

back that the fuck up, you gutless coward. i know you're a coward because service people in iraq can't read or comment at corrente. the DoD bans that. you'd know that if you were able to pass the basic IQ requirements prisoners and dropouts pass to get into today's army. and no, that's not an insult- that's fact. bush's war has brought new ranks of literal former prisoners and test flunking dropouts, previously unacceptable by our standards of service, into the army and elsewhere. and no, you can look that up yourself, i'm not going to 'prove' it to you.

you really make me sick, you're so inhumane. "just move?" where? with what money? there are old people and sick people and people who paid their fucking taxes their whole fucking lives, being tossed on the street and fired and a host of other life-altering shit. you know why? because of your goddamn war and tax cuts for the rich. fuck you, fuck all your kind.

sorry to go all pottymouthed by i'm so sick and tired of this sort of infantile bullshit. it's not argument, it's not even rhetoric. it's 4th grade playground "i know you are but what am i?" hairpulling. the question isn't why don't i move from the country into which i was born, it's are you even salvagable as a human being? does your brain even work, or are you just a bot? i'm leaning towards the latter.

and i've forgotten more about iraq than you will ever know, but let's don't go there, ok?

Sounds damnably like a whine to me, but I'll give you an honest answer anyway.

I have an honest question for everyone here. Why, if you hate our president, don’t you move to another country?

Because this is my country. This is my home. I served in the United States Air Force to defend this country, and I took that oath in all seriousness: to support and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
The country I grew up in offered opportunity to all the citizens and many of the resident aliens. The current administration has made continuing that impossible and has spit all over the servicemembers, not just those being transported out to fight in this war, but those already maimed or slain in this war; and they have spit upon the memory of the civilians and merchants and military members and foreign visitors killed on 11SEP01, as well as on the heartfelt empathy of the entire world, in pursuing their dangerous, delusional, oil-driven dishonesties ever since declaring war in October 2001, then three months later hiring out the capture of bin Laden -- to subcontractors who failed. The Vietnam War colored the background of my childhood and adolescence, and the waste of lives of our servicemen and women sent to die in that war taught some of the leaders of our military invaluable and indelible lessons. But other aspiring leaders refused to participate in or learn from the test of character that is military service; meanwhile, furthering their own ambitions and risking nothing more than political defeat or financial setback, they wormed their way into Republican corridors of power and took advantage of familial ties to privilege to set themselves up for an undeserved and dishonest installation in power in 2000.

So for me to leave my country in the hands of the Bush cabal violates my oath to support and defend that same country.

More simply, why did you stay through the Clinton years?

I’m honestly curious. It’s not like you can change his mind for him, so why complain?

It's dangerous to assume anything. However, to step aside and let go unchecked the policies and behaviors of this President is to capitulate in the face of greed and wrongheadedness, and no progress ever arises from such cowardice.

It may be something you don’t like that he is doing, but why constantly fight about it?

Because if I am not the only one who finds his behavior offensive, but I do not know others find his behavior so, I am discouraged from standing up for what I believe in, and I am prevented from effectively opposing the actions I find abhorrent.

Another question. You all do know that if you lived in the countries that you want us to stop messing with, and you spoke about their ruler like you are ours, you would all be put to death right?

I believe you overestimate the efficacy of cruelty in a Byzantine situation such as Iraq. However, the experiences blogger Riverbend describes at Baghdad Burning suggest that not every dissident voice is violently silenced even in the Iraq of today. Her family has, however, been dispossessed. I assure you, my home and vehicle and other belongings do not merit the risk you would take should you attempt to acquire them through dispossessing me as "collateral damage" for my dissent.

I was just wondering if you all were aware.
I find this ironic. I think we here at Corrente, and indeed throughout the nation, which has come at long last to its senses enough so that the President enjoys fewer than 30% of the country's support for his continuing this ill-advised, poorly-planned, under-manned and over-funded, mercenary (hired-killer) fronted war, are far more acutely aware of reality than most readers at, say, Powerline or Free Republic or Little Green Footballs.

I know I am not as smart as you all, so you don’t have to tell me I’m stupid. I just honestly wanted to know what the problem is.
That's sweet of you. Really. The problem, of course, is that we believe in the United States of America, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the rule of law and the principles of liberty and justice for ALL Americans, not just the few who bow the knee to Bush, Cheney and company.

Oh, and if someone states that they are in the military, and you cannot refute that, please treat them as such. It is sad for people to insult the military, especially when they want so bad to bring our troops home.

Several of the Corrente writers are military veterans. We would not insult the military, and we do want to see our brothers and sisters in uniform home safe soon, as they have been asked to risk their lives, limbs, futures and consciences in service to something so profoundly ill-conceived as the war in Iraq to no avail.

Please further elucidate this concern, because it sounds a bit like you're confused and we can't help you if we don't understand your question.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

I try to reserve the word "President" for Constitutional officers.

Meanwhile, I continue to note the general agreement on the actual topic of this thread, which is that mercenaries, as a rule, suck. I'm so pleased. David Broder would be pleased. Shall we sing kumbaya now?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

I don't think this question is honest, and just generic talking point, "I have an honest question for everyone here. Why, if you hate our president, don’t you move to another country?"

I think everyone can agree that Bush was appointed to office by the Supreme Court. I think we can also agree that the American people we robbed of an honest count of the votes in 2000 in FL, and similarly Ohio was robbed of an honest recount in 2004.

I'm not saying Ohio would have turned out differently, but I am saying this was once a nation of laws, and there were rigged recounts in many Ohio counties (re: two BOE staff that were convicted in Cleveland of rigging the recount, and also check out the ballots destroyed illegally by a majority of Ohio counties in direct violation of Ohio law and a judge's ruling to preserve the ballots)

Also, the President lost his status when he violated his Oath of Office to obey the Constitution, let alone defend it. What you fail to understand is that unlike Rethuglicans who put their head in the dirt over theft of our liberties, most "lubhreals" actually care about this country, and our freedoms. I think we can all agree we live in fear of the massive powers Hillary will inherit.

Are you going to be moving out of the country when the Clinton II regime takes power? What about when Hillary is in charge of FISA spying and merging your banking history with your credit history with your national ID card? Will you care then?

Cheesemasterl:

Very good points.

chicago dyke:

I wish you would support the military like you do that out of work drunk Joe Wilson, who had to have his wife get him a job that he was not qualified to do. And who sold out his country for a job offer in the ill fated Kerry administration. BTW when you meet him did he try to feel you up, or are you over 18.

Sarah:

The only reason that I did not move during the Clinton administration, is that he was busy killing Americans in Waco and Ruby Ridge. Call it getting ready.

intranets:

Al Gore could have stopped 9/11 in 1997 he should be in jail not making movies.