Barack Obama, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, and Donna Brazile.

Tie them all to the anchor and kick if off the deck

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“I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat.” - Will Rogers

b/c i'm looking forward to the implosion of the DLC and all their minions. yes, let him win. there's a big bag of shit for him to hold, and i can't think of a better way to clean out the "democratic" party of DINOs, than to hand them Bush's messes and see them fail. naderite? not really. just...a kind of brutal realpolitik. let's argue this more, "mccain" supporters and bitter dead ender types.

Lambert, that is certainly an interesting way of looking at it. But, I've never voted solely out of spite, and that is what I'd be doing if I decided to vote on November 4th. I'd need a helluva support team to get me to vote for Obama come November 4, and the OFB could not be my support group. They are the single best weapon for McCain.

Both McCain and Obama will be utter failures on a scale almost too staggering to believe (Thanks, Bush and Cheney!). There are two reasons why I'm terrified of Obama being the failure: as a Democrat, it'll delegitimize the Party as a whole and deliver a near-fatal blow to liberalism due to the misperception that Obama is a liberal; and as a black man, it'll inflame racism like never before...on a global scale.

If I didn't give a damn about trying to hold onto the last thread of a Party that's our dying hope or care about inciting racial hatred, I'd be giddy at the prospects of getting the ultimate revenge against Obama, Axelrod, Dean, Brazile, Pelosi, Brazile & Co.

Dean, Pelosi and a whole lotta Dems staked their reputations on Obama despite his weaknesses. Dean was already unpopular before the primary and we don't have to mention the ratings Congress has. The day after an Obama loss and everyone, after they "get over it", will turn around and be salivating for political heads on platters.

Obama loses and Pelosi probably won't be able to maintain her Speaker role, and the rest of the leadership who pushed Obama on us get canned as well (esp Mr. Clyburn). Dean will be gone by the end of the year. In general, the Dems will be in massive disarray. The caucus fraud will be exposed and talked about, Obama's post-partisan schtick gets ridiculed and the scorn that rightfully belongs to the media will no longer be containable.

Do the Dems survive? Not sure. But there will be room for a dramatically new direction with lots of room for new blood.

Obama wins and liberals get blamed for the problems even though they are post-partisan policies.

When I go through it in my head, Obama looks worse and worse an alternative. But for the life of me... McCain? *shudder* 2008 will go down as a display of massive political incompetence. It already has.

Voting for Obama to make sure he is left holding the bag simply delays the gratification that can be achieved by denying the DNC hacks in the first place. More to the point, the people responsible for giving us Obama are already firmly entrenched in the party, and the worst that can happen is to make them more entrenched -- they need to be dislodged starting now...

Of course, the effort will be made to "blame Hillary", so the pushpack has to start immediately --

The primary theme should be about how many voters who didn't like Clinton chose her over Obama based on experience and leadership, and how that is likely to be recapitulated in November.

The secondary theme should the Democratic Party no longer stands for anything other than not being quite as bad as the GOP -- and that replacing "Washington politics" with "Chicago politics" is a step in the wrong direction.

If Obama wins and holds on for 8 years Nader will end up looking like a seer. If Obama wins and bombs, the Republicans could win it back in 2012. Hillary would never pull a Teddy Kennedy and run against a Democratic sitting president. I don't want to wait 8 years for her to run again. By then both the Democratic party and the country could both be in shambles. If Obama loses, Hillary will become the leader of the party. She won't fall over dead like Reid and Pelosi. She'll lead the charge using the majority to hold McCain in check. An Obama loss this year will allow us to regroup and come back with a vengeance in 2012. The Clinton wing would be ascendant, in full force and fury. Right now that's the only scenario that looks even remotely palatable to me.

the Dems sweep Congress, how is that worse than what you propose?

If the Dems fail to enact meaningful legislation, they can start to be purged in 2010. If Obama's president, then they're protected, because the DCCC and DSCC will say oh, noes! We've got to protect (fill-in-the-blank issue they've never firmly defended since Reagan, here)! Protect the majority!

With Obama, the Dems close ranks, hew right, and only become vulnerable to the right.

With McCain, the left-wing (should it still exist) has a greater opportunity to recruit candidates who are real Democrats, build their financial support base independent of the DSCC/DCCC, and actually change Congress -- you know, the ones who make the bills and approve all appointments, including the Supremes? -- for the better.

I'll never vote for McCain, but I don't see why giving the Dems everything they want this election is going to make them more responsive to progressive ideals.

while, as far as I know, none of us really knows anything about how power politics work. Come to think of it, people who do know don't seem to be any good at predicting outcomes either.

My fantasy, as long as we're spinning tales, is that the big guys in Congress got together to try to cut the imperial Presidency's power down a bit. They put up Obama because he didn't have any power base but them; they're hoping to run things through him (fools!). McCain is the volunteer fall guy. Clinton was left out because she's just a grrrl, and anyway they figured they could beat her because of her high negatives (ht BTD). The real action happened so far behind the scenes no one will ever know about it; it was the struggle for the vice presidency.

Restore the balance of power, vote Obama! /fantasy

I say, vote your conscience. No amount of trying to figure out what will happen can yield up a sure tactical vote.

Policy not party!

If your state is reliably red or blue, vote Green. I've looked at their platform, and it's not impressive, and I don't think Cynthia McKinney -- let alone her advisers -- is impressive, but if they make a 5% threshold in the popular vote (at least their site says) they become a permanent presence via campaign finance money. There's something to be said for that, and it doesn't preclude working within the D party, later, either.

I live in a state where that's possible, and I might do it. I'm not sure, because November is a long way away.

And my state D establishment totally sucks -- they've affected me in a bad way by slamming a humongous landfill into my area, based on crooked dealing in the state capitol, and I'd like to send a big "Fuck You" message to them as well. It's a mini-Village, just without as much money and with fewer competent people -- the truly feral ones head for the Beltway.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I guess I was wrong when I said this yesterday:

I don’t think Obama really understands what that means yet. He is the LEADER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. Because of that he cannot by definition be post-partisan. Bill Clinton is going to explain it to him tonight, in front of the entire Democratic party and in front of most of the free world which has televisions. He will explain what Democrats have always stood for, how Democrats are better than Republicans, and what Democrats will do to improve our future.

He really did just like he reportedly (by Begala) said he would: he did exactly what Obama wanted him to do. I hardly recall when he even used the word "Democratic", it was all Obama, Obama, Obama. Frankly, I think he did exactly what Obama wanted him to do because he knew it won't help Obama. I'm sure it made Obama and Michele feel good to have our last successful president say that Obama is CiC material, ready for the job, wise and true and all of that bullshit, I'm sure that was the thrill of a lifetime to have that happen. If there is one thing we know about Obama, he loves him some good public puffery (and last night he got it from the best), but there isn't a single person outside his OFB that believed a word of it.

I was right about one thing, the Big Dog did put on a clinic; except when he went into that mode he was attacking the failed Republican leadership and ideology of the last 30 years. The income inequity, the militarism, the destruction of the environment, the raise in gas prices (that last is enough to turn the heads of the iPodicans!). He derided those as Republican ideals and his best line was, after describing how they had finally had a chance to fully implement the Reagan-Bush ideology (I wish he had called it that more clearly) with a Republican presidency and Republican congress (Jesus, did they only finally make that happen in 2000?), and noting disaster it has been, to say "Thanks, but no thanks." I would like to see Deval Patrick or Mark Warner or Barack Obama "It doesn't matter where good ideas come from" WORM away from THAT!

So, the good thing is he got to defend his own legacy and presidency, he also did exactly what Obama asked him to do (and thanks to the leakers for telling us what Obama wanted him to do and also for saying "Obama let him say whatever he wanted to say" which makes it clear Clinton was a good boy on his own best behaviour), so now he is "Good" Clinton again (until he is "Bad" Clinton again). I'm also pleased that it doesn't help Obama one bit; now Obama can fight for his own self for a change.

And the soul of the Dem party? Well, none this time around I guess, even Bill has given up. But I'm an optimist, this is the first Obama speech I will listen to all the way through. (I might have to get drunk first).

We will all no more in a few hours.

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Around these parts we call cucumber slices circle bites

I say, whether your state is reliably hued or not, vote green. Many actual progressives have wished for more than two parties for years, and this is the time to strike. If 27% of Clinton supporters won't vote for Obama, and half of those opted for McKinney, that starts to look like a viable third party. In past years we haven't risked it because the Dem was better than the Republican, but I see both as very bad for our country this time.

I'm finally seriously considering by alternative options. It doesn't mean I'll go Green or Independent, but they've instantly become more attractive.