If there were a place where one could have an honest and unbiased exchange of information and analysis about proportionality and blame in I/P? And even solutions, too (on that count, hats off to Correntians for providing some real food for thought... before things devolved into the usual falafel-and-matzo fight).

Krauthammer prowls a circle where all of Israel's actions are de facto justified. In our neighborhood, none of Israel's actions can be justified. Maybe one side's biases are more correct, and maybe it's our side. Yay team!

But somehow, I think, the asymmetries of asymmetrical warfare are intrinsically complicated. And, when groupthink rules, complicated is shunned, because it may harsh the mellow of Manichean certainty.

That's not (except for those who'd rather pretend it is) a call for false equivalence or wishy-washy politics. It's a call for thoughtful thought. It's wrong, I know, but it's so temptingly taboo.

Israel was created in 1948 by the UN. The nation has a right to its existence.

First we had the PLO, and the massacre of Israeli athletes at the Olympics.
Then we had the hijacking and rescue at Entebbe.
Then we had the endless rain of rockets.
Then we began to see the suicide bombers.
Then we began to hear about Hez-b-allah and Hamas and Al Qaeda.
Then we began to have bombings. US marine barracks, US embassies, Israeli and Lebanese restaurants, bars, buses, tourist hotels; it spread to the Philippines; it spread all around the world. It went to Madrid and London and New York (twice) and the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania.

The roots of Al Qaeda and the 'cause' bin Laden espouses is the destruction of Israel.

A "progressive thought" that allies itself with such "causes" is corrupt.

"The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence."

It allows you to plan an attck for 18 months.

After you lay siege to the leadership of a people.

Shoot school girls 17 times on their way to school.

And refuse to recognize the democraticaly elected government of a country.

And lay seige to a country.

Israel's economic blockade on Gaza began in 2006 in order to undermine Hamas, the party ruling Gaza currently.

I guess these other acts of war conducted by Israel against the Palestinian Nation are not sufficient grounds for agression. But I guess a blocakde isn't a breach of a cease fire. Is it Sarah?

Rocket attacks. Constantly. And Hamas says right in its founding covenants that its purpose is to destroy Israel.

It's succeeded in destroying hope for peace formerly friendly towns.

Self-defense is not a crime, yet, is it?

Or do you find the quote below a lie?
The following quotes are from Jamie Smith, CEO of SCG International and a former decorated CIA officer. Smith is widely recognized as one of the foremost authorities on international security.

"The aim of Israel's current air/ground operation is to deny Hamas the
ability to fire rockets into Israeli territory. The IDF's aim is to also
hurt Hamas sufficiently in order to make it not worth firing at Israel and
render Hamas ineffective as a military threat."

-- "Hamas is a Takfiri Sunni Muslim organization located in Gaza on the
southern border of Israel. Their stated goal is to destroy Israel and
promote Palestinian causes. They have been rocketing Israeli cities and
settlements. Rockets were being fired from, among others areas, Beit
Lahiya, where they were stored and from the home of Ismail Renam, who had a
central role in the launching of Grad-type rockets against Israel. The
Grad-type rockets have a longer range than the rudimentary Qassam rockets
Hamas more commonly uses. SCG Analysts assess Hamas general rocket range
currently at approximately 40 kilometers."

I think the people of Israel have a right not to have rockets raining down randomly upon them.

By that logic the Palestinian's haven't had to recognize Israel since what 1948?

Some groups have small regional/local agendas others have a mind for world domination. Lumping all the groups together is not helpful, IMO.

The irony of the I/P situation is that, yes, Palestinians were kicked out of there land 60 years ago but to get their land back they would have to do the same thing to entirely new generations who had no role in the initial carving up of the Holy Land. In other words few people responsible for the initial historical situation are around anymore. What we get today are children paying the price for the sins of their forbears. I was gonna write a post entitled "Sins of our Fathers" discussing this, but I'm sure it will be attacked by partisans who have all the justifications for their violence. What's the answer when *both sides are justifiably aggrieved*? It seems that the answer to many is just more violence.

Wasn't it David Ben Gurion who when asked what to do with the Palestinians said "remove them"?

Sarah, this is a war and the Palestinians have a right to elect their government, fight blockades, and determine their own direction independent of the will of Israel and America. I don't think DU and White Phosphorus against civilian targets are warrented against tin can rockets. I widh Isarel woudl just come clean and admit the want to wipe the Palestians out of the middle east. But please don't call "shock and awe" self defense. It's terror, it's overkill, it's indiscriminate slaughter. That is why we like it so much. There are other more effective tactics to stop those feeble ass rockets. This is Fallujah all over again. Same tactics, same strategy, same reasons (oil). I thought someone with your background would be able to see past the fog, propoganda and hype or at least pick a better grounded argument for Israel's mode of attack. Don't ratinlaize squadrons of F-16's and Brigades of ground troops going house to house on some short range rockets that have killed what 10 people. You know this is more than that. This is premeditated decimation - years in advance.

To me this is ambiguous as hell. No clarity whatsoever. But don't worry. In ten years there won't be any Palestians in Palestine or Gaza anymore. They'll either be dead or in refugee camps. All of them not just Hamas.

"Progressive" thought is that the Palestinians should overrun Israel, and destroy the Jewish nation as an interloper. "Progressive" thought can go suck an egg.

I want to say that I can't believe you said that, but I very much can believe that you say and believe that. It's bad enough you blatantly and purposefully misrepresent the other side of this (i.e. the egregious lie about "progressives" wanting to see Israel overran and destroyed), but you then go on to stick your fingers in the eyes of real and liberals and progressives.

I know where your priorities lie, now. You can pose as a progressive all that you want to, but you've made your choice. With that one careless and thoughtless blog you've revealed yourself. Good for you.

Krauthammer but also relying on statements made the former head of Blackwater. Great.

Prior to forming SCG International, (Jamie) Smith was the Founding Director of Blackwater Security Consulting as well as Vice President of Blackwater USA, a leading security services company. Previously, Smith served as an officer with the Central Intelligence Agency in the Directorate of Operations, which conducts intelligence operations and special activities.

These are the people responsible for the tragedy that is Iraq. You really want to be quoting them as "experts"?

Here's a real expert on Israeli history and foreign policy. Avi Shlaim, having grown up in Israel and served in the IDF, is now an Oxford professor of international relations:

I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.

Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.

snip

Israel's settlers were withdrawn but Israeli soldiers continued to control all access to the Gaza Strip by land, sea and air. Gaza was converted overnight into an open-air prison. From this point on, the Israeli air force enjoyed unrestricted freedom to drop bombs, to make sonic booms by flying low and breaking the sound barrier, and to terrorise the hapless inhabitants of this prison.

snip

To be sure, Hamas is not an entirely innocent party in this conflict. Denied the fruit of its electoral victory and confronted with an unscrupulous adversary, it has resorted to the weapon of the weak - terror. Militants from Hamas and Islamic Jihad kept launching Qassam rocket attacks against Israeli settlements near the border with Gaza until Egypt brokered a six-month ceasefire last June. The damage caused by these primitive rockets is minimal but the psychological impact is immense, prompting the public to demand protection from its government. Under the circumstances, Israel had the right to act in self-defence but its response to the pinpricks of rocket attacks was totally disproportionate. The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.

Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.

The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.

A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It di d so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men. Israel's objective is not just the defence of its population but the eventual overthrow of the Hamas government in Gaza by turning the people against their rulers. And far from taking care to spare civilians, Israel is guilty of indiscriminate bombing and of a three-year-old blockade that has brought the inhabitants of Gaza, now 1.5 million, to the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Read the rest here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan...

Because my priorities are very simple and very straightforward.
zeezee, and Damon, I don't particularly give a damn whether I've offended your tender sensibilities or not.

Where I stand and what I believe is this: Israel exists and has a right to continue to do so.

Israel is there. The United Nations created the nation. The Arabs attacked it. Not once. Not twice. Three times. The Israelis kicked ass, took names, and claimed territory that gave them high ground and defensive positions to enable their people to live, to build, to love, and to prosper.

It's been there a little over 50 years, fighting for its life every day.

Hamas is dedicated to destroying Israel. Period.

Israel left Gaza. What was its reward? Rocket attacks. Suicide bombers. Constant steady bombardment by Hamas and Hez-b-allah. Forces whose leaders have declared they will never approach peace, that peace talks are a waste of time, that as long as there is one Jew alive in Palestine they will not rest.

So you know what that makes them, Damon?

Aggressors.

Terrorists.

Criminals.

The Toronto Sun's article includes this:
It was the thousands of rockets fired indiscriminately at civilian targets in Israel over the years -- intensified since mid-December when the Egyptian-brokered six month ceasefire was terminated by Hamas -- that led to the air attacks and now land invasion by Israel.

Blockade. Yeah, that would be against war materiel. Arms. Weapons. Explosives. Mercs.

Those tunnels they dug were used to smuggle in arms, not food, and to enable kidnappers to bring their prey back to hold for ransom -- and there is nothing in either of those activities that is honorable.

The following quotes are from Jamie Smith, CEO of SCG International and a former decorated CIA officer. Smith is widely recognized as one of the foremost authorities on international security.

It is crucial to Israel's survival to successfully prosecute this
engagement and leave no doubt as to which side was the victor."

-- "In 2006 Israel did not do this and withdrew from a war with Hezbollah
on their northern border (Iranian backed terror group based in Lebanon).
This was the first war that Israel was viewed as having lost since its
creation in 1947. This gave Islamic groups from both Persian and Arab
descent the impression that Israel was not the invincible Goliath that they
were feared to be. This emboldened terror groups such as Hezbollah and
Hamas who stepped up attacks as well as gave Iran newfound courage to
openly call for the destruction of the Jewish state."

-- "The difference this time is the enemy. In 2006 Israel fought
Hezbollah, a Shia organization who use martyrs (suicide attacks) primarily
against military targets and who have stated goals that are somewhat
negotiable. Israel lost and Hezbollah is stronger now militarily and
politically."

-- "Hamas is a Takfiri Sunni organization with goals that are essentially
non-negotiable -- the destruction of Israel -- period. Takfiri Sunnis are
the same as those in Al-Qaeda -- simply put, they are intolerant of non-
Muslims to the point of wanting them dead. They use the Koran to justify
using martyrs and rockets against any target -- military or civilian.
Negotiations cannot be held in good faith for the most part and the only
real option Israel has is to defeat Hamas thoroughly and publicly."

A nation's survival is at stake here.

No, I don't give a thin damn about Hamas' so-called legitimate rule. Oh, and where was the worldwide press on subject of years of rockets pouring into Israel, and years of suicide bombers on the buses, in the cafes and hotels, in the markets?

Israel has given, conceded, withdrawn, ceased fire, and endured attack after attack after attack -- but Hamas, Hez-b-allah, and Al Qaeda want more: an end to the state of Israel.

Why?

Why, because Israel exists, and is a homeland for the Jews.

Simple, really.

what the Janjaweed are doing in Darfur.

Why the US hasn't seen fit to at least support a UN Peacekeeping mission there is beyond me.
Of course, it wouldn't make W and Dick's buddies any oil money, so maybe it is that simple.

Israel had the bad damn luck to draw the only oil-less geographical site in the whole Middle East, when the maps were scribed in 1948.

I get shitfaced drunk and by the next day I've forgotten all about it. Best course, really; no good can come from embracing that creep.

Just sayin'.

""Progressive" thought is that the Palestinians should overrun Israel, and destroy the Jewish nation as an interloper. "Progressive" thought can go suck an egg."

If that was what "progressive" thought actually WAS, maybe it SHOULD suck an egg, but since it isn't, and instead is that there should be some justice for Palestinians (as well as Israelis), and that what Israel is currently doing is hugely disproportionate* then we don't have to worry about it.

Both Vastleft and you (more than VL for having praised Krauthammer, sometimes broken clocks are never right) are now guilty of the same "Mercy me, I don't see any balance because the Libruls are condemning Israel for bombing civilians and I never read them equally saying Palestinian terrorists are bad" baloney trope.

*See how that works? I used a conjugation of the word "proportionate", which implies that maybe "some" portion possibly was required, which implies "balance". No thanks necessary. That's how we do it when decrying violence on both sides Although true balance, like a list of the names of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets combined by a side-by-side list of the names of the Palestinians killed by Israeli bombs and bullets would not be possible on a blog like this (impossible because they don't even bother to take or publish the names of the vast majority of dead Palestinians, they are just a number, not really people afterall), and actually would be objected to as "unfairly prejudicial", and not "balanced" by some. Sometimes the facts aren't balanced, hate to break it to you.

Vastleft writes:

the problem of progressive commentary about I/P being exclusively about how wrong / evil Israel is.

I think this is adequately explained by opposing the dominant, smothering media narrative in the US that the Israelis are holy saints that can do no wrong and the Palestinians are wrong and evil.

I don't see anyone in the US left arguing that Israel must be destroyed. Some measure of justice for the Palestinians, sure.

As for Hamas's statements about destroying Israel, well, they do not now nor will they ever have the power to do this. Israel has nuclear weapons and a modern military, its existence is not threatened by Hamas's trash-talk.

First, stop maligning Texans.
Second, I'd like everyone who isn't Jewish to keep in mind that little bit of guilt on your shoe. Jews were forced out of their homeland, not allowed to own land in some countries, forced to live in ghettos, murdered, etc., and that's before the Holocaust. Who did this to them? Some of your (and my) ancestors. It isn't surprising that they wanted to return to ancestral lands in which they could build their own nation. Other countries encouraged Jews to go to Palestine to be rid of them.
I want peace, but I'm offended when people talk about Israelis as oppressors, with no sense of history.

And by that term we mean what?

Important, because VL is generalizing about "progressive" views on I/P, but after the primaries, I really have no idea what that term might mean.

Just my contribution to everybody losing their mind on this thread.