PUMA is about what you’re against (Obama). What PUMA is FOR cuts across the complete spectrum, left to right, correct? Thus it includes persons to the right of Hillary Clinton voting for McCain?

If I understand it right, I could never be a PUMA.

I’m considering withdrawing my vote from Obama, but never to give to McCain.

I can’t see the leverage; the right cancels the left out. Another coalition is needed that’s strictly left.

Do I have any facts wrong here? I ask in all sincerity.

of real Democrats — what I’m FOR, though, is the cats.
Literally.
’Cause when it comes to the politicians? They got nothin’ I want. The guy I could’ve voted for unconditionally was John Edwards, and he never had a snowball’s chance.

That’s what I’ll probably never really forgive John Kerry for. Not only wouldn’t he fight for the votes to be counted in ’04 in Ohio, he wouldn’t fight for Edwards, either.

PUMA? What we’re for is valuing voters Obama threw under the bus.
Black people.
White people.
Yellow people.
Brown people.
Red people.
Old people.
Female people.
Poor people.
Military people.
Veterans.
People who need health care.
People who care about the environment.
People who care about corporate rule.
People who care what happens to our civil rights.
People who cared about issues instead of personalities.
People who wanted their votes to count.
People who lived in Florida and Michigan.
People who respect experience.
People who expect results.
People who don’t buy pretty speeches as proof.
People who want Constitutional government.

Pretty soon we’ll be able to lift the bus and slip out from under it. I hope it won’t be too late for the USA.

We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! Knowing that we’re not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

I realize there’s more strength in numbers, but there’s also strength in a well-defined vision and set of values. Is there any talk of a No-Obama/No-McCain coalition? It could have more leverage. I know you have momentum going for you and a mid-course correction seems difficult, but there’s still time to regroup.

…some of the groups of the No-Deal Coalition are against both Obama and McCain.

but there’s a reason everyone who’s against the shenanigans in MI and FL should stick together: To act as one voice during the DNC, to say our issues are more important than one man’s run for president.

Splitting people off and infighting is Brazile’s game.

Sticking together for a set of principles a president has to live up to, is ours.

you’ve got your facts wrong.

PUMAs are just people who are not going to vote for Obama.

Some will not vote at all.
Some will vote for a ’third party’ candidate, or write in Clinton.
And some will vote for McCain.

But if you are a democrat who won’t vote for Obama, you’re a PUMA.

except in the lowercase sense. A lot of those, especially who are voting for third parties would fit this description, wouldn’t they?

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Amanda exposed it.

I am too lazy to look it up, but Riverdaughter wrote a post about how we shouldn’t even help with down ballot races. The more I think about that, the more I think that we are dealing with trolls.

She completely missed the donations that Murray has made to Clinton, the season.

Just b/c somebody was smart enough to not want Bush as the Republican nominee in 2000, doesn’t make them a ratfucker.

And, while I don’t read The Confluence everyday, I cannot see RD telling people to not help in downticket races, considering a stronger Dem Congress is one of the bonuses to McCain getting elected.

Are some of the PUMA purveyors trolls? Of course, just like some of the Obama bots where trolls, and they are relatively easy to spot, just look for the whackos telling you that we have to not elect Obama, because he is going to turn us over to Sharia Law, and you find them.

Most PUMA’s have a legitimate list of reasons why they don’t want Obama, and have a long documented history in support of liberal causes.

Considering I haven’t yet seen one word from Amanda about Obama’s continued pandering to the Christianists, something she has vehemently been against(not saying it doesn’t exist, just that I haven’t seen it) she has lost all credibility with
me.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

PUMA stands for “Party Unity My Ass”… and started out as a rejection of Democratic party unity under the Obama banner — its a protest of those who are reliably democratic party voters.

Just rejecting Obama doesn’t make you a PUMA — its really more about rejecting “party unity” under Obama.

who has absolutely no idea what PUMA is, and shows up here and LIES about what PUMAs are.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say PUMA is a fraud. PUMApac may be a fraud, but being a PUMA does not mean supporting or contributing to PUMApac, and has no necessary connection to it.

It’s a very real phenomenon - disillusioned Dems who say “Party unity, my ass,” and are planning to not vote for Obama. How large that phenomenon is, I don’t know, no one does. It may not be that big. However, given events of the last two weeks, the ranks of PUMAs are probably expanding (VL being a case in point).

I’m not supporting McCain. I will never vote for him. At this point I am also not voting for Obama, though he may, through his words and actions, change my mind on that. But currently I’m planning on leaving the bubble at the top of the ballot blank.

PUMAPac was started by a 2000 McCain supporter, it appears.

Yet PUMA itself, I’m pretty sure, began at the Confluence, and I do not question Riverdaughter’s original support for Clinton.

She has repeatedly stated that “Friends don’t let friends vote Republican.” However, I left that site after she expressed willingness to ally in some form with McCain supporters, which is not for me and why I can’t be a PUMA. But it’s a respectful disagreement.

My impression is that this is a very loose-knit concept over which she has little real control. I see no evidence to allege fraud on her part, and think you should nuance your disagreement far more carefully.

My guess: PUMAPac was formed to cynically take advantage of PUMAs.

I don’t think you should make the serious charge that she’s discouraging downballot voting without a link. I don’t see evidence for that in the link you provided.

Which means she was smart enough to not want George Bush as the Repub nominee.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

to Imelda below.

Murray was a McCain supporter in 2000. Her recent donation history showed Clinton support.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

But overheated, IMO. As are a few here.

n/t

there is are legitimate concerns and reasons why so many are not going to vote in the Presidential. Obama’s recent actions have only made matters worse.

were discussing those same issues, does that mean we’re frauds, too? The one push this week has been separating McCain and non-McCain supporters within PUMA — even though Obama’s trying to lure McCain supporters by throwing his natural progressive constituencies under the bus — AGAIN. Funny timing, that.

If we purged all the former Republicans and present Republican-leaning people out of the blogosphere, Kos, Arianna and their fellow travelers would be Audi, and you know it. Funny how “post-partisanship” gets the gas-face when we actually use it against a candidate who wants that maneuvering room solely for himself.

The Huffington Post’s web tool for looking up contributions had the details of her 2000 and post-2000 contributions. If I see a clear link, I’ll post it.

Huffpo tool

we’d be rid of Kos and Ariana ;-)

I agree, cg.eye, that the 2000 McCain contribution is not enough to 100% prove PUMAPac is fraud. But it’s pretty dang suspicious.

That’s why a link showing the PUMAPac founder’s timing of Clinton support is important.

Regardless, it should be obvious to all by now that this awkward coalition has produced goals that are too murky for the media and public to untangle.

That’s why, IMHO, liberals who, FOR PROGRESSIVE REASONS, won’t or may not vote for Obama, but decidedly will not vote for McCain, should distance themselves from Republicans. And work to coalesce people from the LEFT, especially now that we’re getting increasingly shaky, not the right. Better late than never.

Remember that those people appalled at his surrogates’ treatment of Clinton separated from those who said they were feminists, but also said the bitch deserved it? *That* was the separation that gave Obama to move on every other issue against the people from whom he supposedly wants votes.

Feminism suffered when we wanted more and more tests about our stances on issues, instead of being broad-based enough to push one main issue, hard. (Equal Rights Amendment, anyone? We don’t even joke about it anymore, we’ve pulled so hard to the right.)

The coalition will separate naturally, once the conventions are over, but until then Obama needs to see that there’s something he’s doing wrong, and he will lose votes if he doesn’t respond with real change.

voting for Obama. Most of the people I know will not vote for McCain and will vote Dem down ticket but have chosen not to vote for Obama.

Don’t think that Obama and the NuDemocratic Party represents me or my values. That fact that both are willing to advance Republican agendas like telecom immunity and FISA, which I’m strongly against, makes me unwilling to condone their actions with my vote.

http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neigh…

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

And work to coalesce people from the LEFT, especially now that we’re getting increasingly shaky, not the right. Better late than never.

Coalesce around what though?

’Tis the $64,000 question.

Might be time to really starting thinking about that.

A realignment.

Thanks, willy, that helps. It appears to be an unfair hit job on PUMAPac by Amanda at Pandagon. The February donation of $650 to Hillary, with none to the GOP, by Darragh Murphy, is reassuring. Amanda was wrong to cherrypick her data this way.

Amanda quotes, at Pandagon, from an email she received from Murphy:

I DID EVERYTHING I COULD in 2000 to prevent GEORGE BUSH from becoming the Republican nominee, including donating money to McCain’s campaign and voting for him in the Republican primary here in Massachusetts because I was confident that my hero, AL GORE, would win the primary for the Democrats.

I then went on to vote for Al in November of course.

Murray’s statement rings true. We should accept it at face value unless there’s solid evidence to the contrary.

If there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s questioning people’s motives. I’ve always considered that a right-wing tactic (“Democrats are fooling you, they REALLY want to [fill in the blank].”) It lowers the discourse and makes reasoned policy debate impossible. Attacking PUMA’s “real” motives is, IMO, right-wing framing.

Yet the problem remains with PUMA that the coalition is too broad for their motives to be clearly presented.

As I see it:

1.) PUMA isn’t about telling people what they should do with their vote once they enter the voting booth. Choice without consequences.

2.) PUMA is about rejecting the Obama Unity Schtick and the false choices that it represents.

3.) PUMA is about rejecting the DNC’s actions.

As that relates to voting for McCain, I’m guessing, it’s about rejecting the “lesser of two evils” framework which rewards Obama and the DNC for what’s happened.

To actively seek to prevent Obama from winning.

Not a bad idea, by the way.*

*although Arthur’s stance is to not vote at all. And he describes himself as a “radical” near anarchist, so context.

a delightful, irreverent, wonderfully american political slogan like

Party Unity My Ass

turned into a way too serious issue/discussion.

for me the phrase and its acronym, PUMA, is a funny, pleasing way to say “go to hell” (or in the modern parlance, “F**k U”)

to the dons of the democratic party -

to howard dean, barack obama, nancy pelosi, john kerry, donna brazile, harry reid, and a large number of decaying donkeys in the house and senate who need to be sent out to pasture -

and who no longer represent or support what the democratic party at its best can be.

The Obama blogs gave away all their leverage prematurely by forcing Clinton out and declaring the Messiah. PUMAs gave away leverage by blurring left and right.

B-listers should lead a coalition that is solidly anti-McCain, while withholding support from Obama and drafting a more progressive nominee. Anyone doing this yet?

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

PUMAs don’t concede that Hillary still can’t win the nomination…

so cart before horse.

PUMAs gave away leverage by blurring left and right.

Who’s doing the blurring?

I’m going to go one step further and ask, are there not areas where left and right do genuinely merge as it relates to policy?

Policy solutions to specific problems, not solutions in search of problems that don’t exist?

I’ve been pimping Gravel since the jump. (First TV debate?)

But so far that’s been poo pooed into the ground.

Fair Tax.

is too blurry to be effective? Their goals are clear, and diverse parties have reached a basic consensus.

Is it voting unpredictability you want, or a pre-fabricated block to hand over to Obama, once he turns around again and says the right things?

I’m not going to stop reading posts from people who’ve made a choice now, because that’s a measurement of the level of their disgust, and I’m not going to ask them to change their mind, if there’s no candidate that’s out there saying he or she is willing to take a stand against the real prevarication supported by the DNC.

There have been an unfortunate number of people in the media claiming that we will all vote for McCain. This is incorrect and I should know because my site started the whole damn thing. Go to The Confluence and read the page on PUMA power in the top tabs section. PUMA is all about voters holding the Democratic party accountable. It is about withholding our votes if the SDs do not fix the problem at the convention. It is NOT about electing John McCain although if that happens as a consequence of us acting on our consciences, the party will have to take the blame for it, not us.
Obama is a deeply flawed nominee. Some of us have seen through him for months now. Others are just coming around. I don’t know about you but when his droogs started calling me a racist because I wouldn’t support him, he lost my respect and support. I’ve watched in horror as the game was rigged to ignore voters or suppress votes for his opposition. This man will NEVER get my vote. And I will not be satisfied until there is a fair, open and transparent convention in Denver. My state didn’t spend millions of dollars on a primary, move up the date by 4 months and vote decisively for Clinton just so it can sit on its hands during a roll call vote. Anybody who lives in a state like mine should be outraged by the fraud that was perpetrated on all of us.

So, no, you don’t have to vote for McCain but after you’ve thought it over, your conscience will not let you vote for Obama either. And when you’re finally ready to hold the SDs accountable for what happens this fall, you will be a PUMA. And we would welcome you to a growing club. We are legion,
Come together at The Confluence

I think it’s inevitable that anything coming from the grassroots — especially since Axelrod decapitated the blogosphere — wouldn’t take a single view on anything. Certainly in various comments there’s been a persistent notion of voting for McCain as a protest, as “leverage.” I can’t go there (a) because I’m not smart enough to lie, either by commission or omission, about the candidates, and (b) because withholding money now is more effective than withholding a vote later in any case. So if this idea, through your site, is being put to bed, than so much the better.

I think this point you make is very interesting:

My state didn’t spend millions of dollars on a primary, move up the date by 4 months and vote decisively for Clinton just so it can sit on its hands during a roll call vote. Anybody who lives in a state like mine should be outraged by the fraud that was perpetrated on all of us.

What was your state?

It also seems to me that the same arguments apply to the caucus states, and also to the RBC Clusterfuck.

(I know bringiton will point out there’s no logical reason for the outrage, and that about 750 people, is it, control the Democratic party, but I don’t see any possibility of reform unless we start from a stance of what these guys should be doing if they want to live up to their name.)

[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Your typical troll doesn’t post, day after day, on single payer health care. Eh?

[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

We need to cover this story here, because it won’t be covered anywhere else.

Like everything else this year, “Nobody knows anything.”

[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Duh, Lambert, I’m Riverdaughter. You’re not a Tolkien fan, are you?

There are two ways we can use our leverage. We can withhold our money and we can create fear, uncertainty and doubt about whether we will vote for Obama in November. They have to be able to count the votes in order to move resources around. I want them to run around like chickens with their heads cut off this fall or at least have to contemplate that possibility. Can they really afford to write off NJ when there are a lot of Hillary fans here who *might* just go into that voting booth and not be able to push the button for Obama. Gosh that would be a shame because the DNC typically saves money by ignoring NJ. Can they afford to do that this year? I don’t know…

As for the money thing, I’m almost tempted that we should put the donations that we might have sent the DNC into an escrow account. Let that sucker get nice and fat and just sit there. Then say to the cash strapped DNC, “You want it? Fine. Give us the kind of convention we deserve.”

Come together at The Confluence

people who will not vote Obama—in any way.

I could turn around and point to all the Republicans supporting and talking up Obama and say what you said.

they destroyed him the exact same ways Obama tried to destroy Hillary and Bill.

in Hell’s Kitchen—on 49th street—and asking if passersby were registered Democrats—one asked me, and i said “of course. my parents too, and my grandparents were also—but i won’t vote Obama”— the woman wasn’t even surprised—made a face like she’d heard it alot in fact, and didn’t say a word to try to sell me on him or to get me to change my mind or anything.

doesn’t mean he’s not an Obama troll when he posts crap like that. It just means he’s an Obama troll with an outside interest.

“Here’s a pile of money. What will say to get it? And don’t worry, we’ll hold you accountable….”

[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

The birth of another genius idea.

rights, true populist policies that don’t reward companies who take plants overseas, no more Ethanol and absurd Farm subsidies, punishment of those who use Govt as a piggybank and admit to comitting crimes like spying on us, etc, real oversight of govt. contracting and beefing up of food safety and drug safety staff, supporting true liberals to challenge spineless Congresspeople and against those like Emanuel and Schumer who always pick the most conservative Dems to run, against Blue Dogs, …

there’s tons of things…

“… divergent views of party purpose, significant shifts in demographics and geographic distribution of traditional and prospective Democratic voters, and a fundamental divergence of the role of government in the lives of ordinary citizens …

One looks at Obama and there is no political substance. Nothing. There is no issue, no cause, no certain pledge that says he and his faction intend to do anything for the working class or any interest that might involve true political contestation. This is what Krugman has pointed out from the start. Everything is on the table to be negotiated away for the sake of “unifying the nation.” When pushed, there will be no shove back. He has nowhere he wants to go. …”

no substance means that when the H of R passes Medicare for all he won’t dare veto it.

Pollster.com aggregates have Obama up over McCain by 12.5%.

Cello @ http://pumacentral.blogspot.com/

has been donating to hillary’s campaign in $50 and &100 increments [you’ll have to scroll down] since march of this year. official fec reporting requirements for small donations aren’t triggered until they add up to more than $200 [or was it $250? i forget] so sites such s fundrace and opensecrets wouldn’t necessarily have that information until just recently.

i was really annoyed by amanda’s crowing over her mad research skillz, but she really went too far with her here’s a republican troll!!!11!1! and here’s her home address!!11!!

h/t

I’m no lawyer, but this sort of slander, this politics of personal destruction, previously the GOP hallmark, has been adopted by Democrats and is tearing out party apart. It should outrage every fair-minded person, regardless of whom he or she supports.

“The Strange Bedfellows coalition, then, by your standard, is too blurry to be effective?”

My standard is not that left and right should not work together; they should, to achieve a specific positive goal. This coalition wants to end retroactive telcom immunity.

The goal of stopping Obama does not seem to me the kind of goal that should bring left and right together. Specific policies, yes, I’m all for it. Helping to select or trash our candidates? I want Republicans to stay the hell out.

I thought they moved to Chicago?

[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

… published home addresses?

[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

pb2.0 isn’t going to do anything like that, i hope.

i’ve been known to indulge in hyperbole once in awhile… also understatement.

thank God. :-)

Helping to select or trash our candidates? I want Republicans to stay the hell out.

but even on legislation, i prefer that the two sides always be acting as checks and balances on each other. only rarely do i want everyone in congress all rushing toward the same goal without tons and tons of critical debate. aumf, anyone?

don’t be dissing my buddy shamu! i did actully start out life as an oceanographer [though it’s not where i’ve ended up].

I believe he’s a libertarian. He has issues with excessive constraint, for some reason.