Not as dreadfully whiny and sanctimonious, but to the same effect: they would not vote for Obama if he were the nominee.

I've been thinking of putting up a poll?

Melissa, no "Clintonista," makes the argument as to why it would be legitimate to not vote for a bigoted, polarizing campaign. To be honest with you, I cannot see how Obama has a chance at winning the GE--especially after Tuesday--so any consideration of protest non-votes against Obama is now ultimately pointless (to me, at least).

With regards to overall defection to McCain (as opposed to not voting), the Pew Research Center showed that 10% of Obama supporters would defect if Clinton were the nominee, while 25% of Clinton supporters would do the same if the reverse were true.

I'm crunching some numbers from the SUSA state-by-state study. I'm usung states that fall under the margin of error (+-4%, i.e. states that are within 3 points for either Obama or Clinton -- or both)

In those states, McCain picks up 1.9% more voters when Obama is the candidate than when Clinton is the candidate. but there are 0.4% fewer undecided voters.

There are large differnces according to race however. Clinton picks up 0.6% more of the white wote, but loses 21.1% of the black vote, 6% of the hispanic vote, and 12.2% of the "other" vote. There are undecided white voters decrease 1.1%, undecided black voters increase 12.5%, undecided hispanic voters increase 3.5%, and undecided "other" voters decrease 9.7%

But when you weight these factors based on percentage of the voting population in each state, these numbers become almost meaningless. For instance the 21.2% more black voters when Obama runs comprise only 2.1% of the voting population overall. And Clinton's 6.0% loss among Hispanic voters becomes a 0.4% gain in overall voters when the states are weighted for population percentages.

Someone needs to tell them that the election isn't about them, oh wait, Atrios has repeatedly and so did Wolcott.

I don't know what to do about this except to say the rest of us are not interested.

Parsing history:

or the last few days I've been thinking about how we've been seeing many of the characteristics of a fascist police state take hold in America, but it began at a time when we had apparent economic strength, which was very different from what happened in Germany, where fascism became possible as a response to the economic misery that had followed the first world war. In Depression-era America, fascism was also a threat, but so was a communist revolution - and what FDR did was forge the path between, to modern liberalism.

What we're seeing today is that the slow degradation of our government and therefore our economic structure that began in earnest in the Reagan years hadn't really become obvious to most working people by 2000. The putsch happened right in front of our eyes and yet nothing seemed to slow it, and Bush was dismantling America openly without impediment. Instead of navigating between fascism and communism, our candidates are navigating between fascism and fascism lite. But now we're starting to see how our government and our economy have been hollowed out - and I think the worst is yet to come. Whoever gets into the White House next January is going to have their work cut out for them. So I was delighted this morning to see that The Editors had graced my comment thread while I slept and begun a discussion of FDR.

Online, the percentages of defectors are almost reversed (subjective feeling ratified by commenter above).

I wonder what's going on?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I looked carefully, but I didn't see the word "Goddess" anywhere.

Avedon has a great FDR thread here, with The Editors involved. Check it out. Sure, there's one or two people trying to say Mr. Hopey is today's FDR, but you expect that.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Dave Johnson wants people to stop being stupid:

Hillary says John McCain is qualified to be President but Obama is not. How does that help Democrats win?

Then a top Obama aide calls Hillary a "monster." How does that help Democrats win?

And then there are the comment trolls who are disrupting the blogs. My criticism on this one goes almost entirely to the Obama trolls, who are threatening and intimidating anyone who dares suggest Obama is not the progressive essiah. Yesterday, for example, Kos had a post about how there are too few women in high-level office. Obama supporters were actually complaining that a post like this gives Hillary an advantage, that women shouldn't be in office, etc. I know better than to determine whether a candidate should be nominated based on comments that supporters leave at blogs, but the Obama trolls have been disrupting so many sites ... You pretty much can't read the comments at DailyKos anymore, for example. How does this help Democrats win?

I'm not even sure that some of these are not Republican operatives being sent in to stir up trouble inside the Democratic party. In fact, I suspect that this is happening.

Heritics against the prophet Obama, are simply attacked, banned, then attacked again after they are banned..allowing the cowardly Obama messengers of hope to shred them long after they have been banned, and thus unable to defend themselves.
Thats Obama courage for ya..
Does it remind you of any particular mob of thugs and bullies that stormed the recount offices in Florida in 2000?
Or of the threatened mob scene at the convention if Saint Obama does not win the nomination?
Ah, hope!
Joebasic
Recovered DU member

I've been reading and commenting at political blogs (plogs?) for a while. I started out supporting Edwards (only because Gore didn't run) and I had Dodd and Biden penciled in next. They dropped out before Edwards.

I was still an Edwards supporter when I found myself defending Hillary from outrageous and unfair attacks from Obots. What bothered me the most was these attacks just recycled right-wing meme's from the nineties. I also found it irritating that Obama (a smart, skilled politician) was described as some impossibly perfect superbeing.

For the sin of defending Hillary and pointing out that Obama was human, I found myself the target of insults and personal attacks from complete strangers. I felt like I had been transported to Red State or some other freeper/wingnut site.

I quit visiting some sites due to the virulent HillaryHate (kos, TPM) and reduced my visits at others. In their place I found sites like this one, where the tone is neutral or pro-Hillary.

For some reason it appears difficult to be pro-Obama without being anti-Hillary. Every day I see a post by some Obot saying that they will never vote for Hillary. While I have seen a few Hillary supporters saying the opposite, most say they feel that way due to experiences like mine.

the only way to unite the party is to have both on the ticket. Whoever wins, some will walk. Most will know better, others will become reconciled, but the only way we can keep it together is to have both on the ticket.

Boo and Kos could show some real leadership, but they are only making things worse. What I don't understand is why the Obama people can't work out that announcing you won't vote for Hillary just gives her supporters an excuse to walk should Obama prevail. How can they be so short sighted?

Maybe Atrios should name Teacherken as wanker of the day, but I think he is trying to stay out of it.

I disagree that the party will torn apart if there is no unity ticket. Remember, even in South Carolina 80% of blacks said they'd be satisfied if Clinton was the nominee; if the group most targeted and likely most affected by the highly inflammatory, (false) racist smears is fine, so will the overwhelming majority of people (And that doesn't include those who will hold their nose just to vote against the GOP). If Clinton gets the nomination, she's already facing an uphill climb against media-backed McCain and adding an unvetted Obama to the ticket would be foolish.* Besides, she needs to go for a VP that not only has been vetted but also can help bolster her appeal against McCain in critical GE states (OH, MO, PA, FL, etc).

*How can the right (and its BFF, the media) not exploit his Chicago ties, with Rezco being the most dangerous, and his lack of qualifications (Even that year of legislative success in the state senate after a Democratic sweep was due to a party elder giving him a lot of the credit while others did the brunt of the work)?

He'd help with Ohio. And he's got the right stuff about taking the Conservatives on. None of this Unity crap.

Anyhow, how could a principled guy like Obama be on the same ticket with stone racists like the Clintons? Snort. Obama has no place to go. Top of the ticket, or nothing. Of course, as a good Democrat, he will campaign for Hillary, as will Michelle.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

because I think that's what's at the heart of all this Unity crap and the "post partisan" big-hearted "outreach." Obama's a Democrat -- in the FDR/JFK/LBJ mold -- just like I'm Chuck Norris's stunt double.

Nah, I think the Obamas will tend up sulking in their tent. Michelle certainly, and Obama probably.

Hey, I thought I was Chuck Norris's stunt double.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

I am honored, Sarah. Even as a joke!

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

you live it.
you stand up for what, and who, you believe in.
far as I can see you always have.
I reckon you're not likely to quit anytime soon.
That much of it's no joke.