Because I think this is reason enough to boycott the whole NFL.

Flaming mudsuckers.

Perhaps someone should investigate Portis's behavior off the field too.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Stop speaking of dogs as if they are people!

You realize that you are implicitly equating a human being with a piece of property?

Human beings get trials.
Human beings are citizens.
Human beings are people.

Dogs are property!

They don't speak or have capacity for instrumental rational thought. They can't have plea agreements.

They aren't people!!

No, dogs aren't people.
In many cases, they are far better than the people who surround them.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Who exactly is saying they're people? Only people have rights because why? Used to be only white men had rights. Funny, that kinda/sorta changed.

People are nasty, neurotic, arrogant and confused bipeds with narrowness of vision and a surfeit of hubris. Dogs are mammals descended from wolves. Get one thing very clear: you, Zenophon, are entitled to your opinion. But do not for one second tell me what I can or cannot call anything--anything. You say dogs aren't capable of rational thought: funny, how many humans are? Are the mentally disabled not humans? What the fuck?

Dogs have been brutalized and beaten and buried in some millionaire's backyard in NFL land--and you're using exclamation points in some kind of obtuse defense of a gutless canine/slaveholder who brought misery and suffering to those who cannot speak for themselves. I stayed away from your posting on Vick's plea deal--once you invoked the race issue I could smell misdirection and I have too much to do to go chasing that ferret.

The relationship between dogs and humans goes back as much as 100,000 years, with the deal being they get to sit near the fire and we get fair warning when intruders approach. Right now, they're growling, and they don't care what dictionary you brought to the cave.

p.s. Vis a vis "property"--You don't own anything in this world--a scary thought to those who think if they cling to something it will somehow carry them past the rocks of death, but there it is. Everything is on loan. Get it? Operate from love and trust: dogs do, and they deserve better than to have some dime store semantics tossed out at them, words used to somehow attenuate the vicious crimes that have been visited upon them by those who are entrusted with their very lives. Mercy...

++++

You are my new hero.

... is one way to get people to stop beating and torturing a subclass of animals: each other.

The real question isn't when dogs will become people, but when people will become human.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

his culpability in the mess into which he got himself by turning his home into a canine charnel house?
Was he somehow led, by virtue of his being "a black man", into this criminal conspiracy?
Does his being "a black man" reduce the viciousness, the sadism, the cruelty of his actions?
Is there a claim, somewhere in here, that because he's "a black man", Vick's entitled to fight dogs, bet on their combats, promote a whole enterprise devoted to torturing and killing dogs and profit from the outcome?
Well, is there? Or am I missing something?

I can't speak for Xen, but I think at least one of the points he's making is that for black men, the justice system can be seen as--let me turn the WASP ironic understatement knob all the way to 11 here--somewhat more outcomes-oriented and instrumental for them than for others.

Again, this whole Vicks thing has got really vile undertones to it, and as liberals or progressives or whatever the fuck, we've got to think systematically and not anecdotally. We are getting so hits on "Vicks" and "nigger" and not, I think, in the sense that "we're all niggers now."

We already know that the wingers, as shown by the the immigration thing, are already going to play the lizard backbrain card as hard as they can. It's the only thing they've got left.

This is our third rail; let's just think, please.

And to re-iterate: When we've been posting on restoring the Constitution, nothing from us on the massively disproportionate jailing of black men. I think we need to be grateful to Xen for not slapping us silly on that and then stomping off, so listen to him here even if only as a make-good, please (Not saying I agree, mind you, but as always: Answer the argument.)

Sorry for diffuse comment, I'm being pulled in several directions at once here.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

people, please- lambert beat me to it, for it's clear there's a whole lot more going on here (corrente and the nation in general) than just dogs, guilt, humanitarianism or even local "justice."

that's really the important point, no? if you think it's "only" about (fill in your argument here), you're missing the big picture. and i would add- another, more constitutionally relevant picture, but that's just me.

"Is Someone Seriously Suggesting Vick's Race Vitiates his culpability?"

No.

See my reply to Farmer

because they were caught driving while black, for instance, or because they got busted by what we used to call, aeons ago when I was in the Air Force doing gate guard duty, "weeds and seeds" (a residue of leaf or seed material that might have been marijuana or might have been something else, e.g. oregano or ragweed or, down in Louisiana where I was stationed, anytime between April and October might have been from hibiscus plants).
Agitate hard -- because we ought to -- for an end to the crap like the Tulia fraud, for an end to disproportionate sentencing over crack, for an end to black men and brown men and black women and brown women going to jail for offenses white men or women get probation for; yes, by all means, I'm all for that. If the constitution doesn't cover everybody equally, it doesn't cover anybody, and the proof of that has some grisly incidents attached to it -- incidents centered around boys like Emmett Till and men like Rodney King or Martin Luther King Junior or Robert Byrd. But don't forget Reginald Denny when you're tolling the names of the abused.
Don't use that issue to excuse Michael Vick's abhorrent behavior. Just don't. For one thing, it cheapens your argument; for another it conflates unrelated issues; for the last but far from the least it sounds like you're saying "but it's okay for him because he's black."
And if you still have a problem with me on this I'm going to ask you another question: how many steps from "killing the bitch" does it take for the bitch not to be a dog but a woman? Where do we draw the lines, indeed?
Don't come telling me we don't need the lines.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Only people have rights because why?
Because the idea of rights is based on the idea of a contract. The reality of rights issues forth from a social contract that can only be entered into through a rational exercise of will - ascent. Any rights that might extend to a dog are extended because the dog is possessed, guarded over, in the trusteeship of a member of the contracting group.
Because dogs are animals “bred” from wolves they are protected as property. The fact that they are incapable of rational thought is not an excuse for cruelty. It is perhaps a caution against over reaction and if not that at least a moment of “rational” and not emotional reflection. The level of visceral outrage is understandable. But it speaks to the level at which our society acts without an understanding of the concept of humanity. That is why people who are mentally challenged (below a certain level of competency) cannot enter into contracts, are often wards of some guardian and are not endowed with the rights of full citizenship (like the right to vote, or the right to pursue the privilege of operating a car).

"But do not for one second tell me what I can or cannot call anything—anything."

What would be your idea of justice for Michael Vick?
Should he be released on his own recognizance?
Should the men with whom he gambled be set free?
Should the media apologize to him?
What is it that you want for Michael Vick?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Where does this keep coming from? Why do people think dogfighting is a part of Black Culture? It's not.

For the Dogs – he should pay a fine and go home.
For the gambling – got to trail and face the music.
RICO – that is bullshit. (unless evidence comes out to the contrary (other than his boys turning evidence to save their ass). I believe they threw RICO at him to get him to plea.)

But yeah Vick should go home. He is not a threat to society. If they want to charge him with gambling fine. Would you do this if he were shooting craps? For me the dogs are just an additional fine.

Xen: I did not write that dogs are people, but you wrote, in a comment to my post: Stop speaking of dogs as if they are people! If you are referencing the headline I used, it is an ironic statement of fact, whether dogs have rights recognized by you or the state or not. They were given no plea bargains.

I've visited many animal shelters, witnessing each dog (and no, I'm not Mr. Anthropromorphizer) stuck in a terrible and pitiless bind. Either they will be adopted or they will be killed--the numbers skew toward death, and the clock is always ticking. Go into a shelter, look at the dogs, tuck away the distance between you and suffering and need, look hard when most would turn away, and the palpable desperation of victims fills the air, beyond the barks and growls. It gets harder and harder for me everytime I do it--maybe I'm a sucker. Maybe I'm growing soft as I age. Or maybe I am finally cutting through the protective veneer of an outer self, and risking a spoiled heart to be witness to life as it really is.

Seriously, go to a shelter. I've volunteered for humans and dogs. Go to a shelter, foster a dog, give unconditional love. Or go to a prison, and visit someone who could use the company. Just be present for something outside of the self.

This issue isn't a legal one for me. This goes a little bit deeper, to the core of empathy and hope and decency and the struggle for life itself. To proscribe one's compassion is to not understand the nature of compassion itself.

++++

I get it I do.

I think it's a waste to fight dogs.

But, my point is, dogs don't fit, can't fit into the category of those eligible for plea deals.

The statement creates the illusion of parity. It creates the sense that the dogs are somehow capable of participating in a system of justice, that their justice was denied, and that they were murdered. These are all terms that belong to the realm of human action. And belong solely to humans.

I'm not saying you do. But there are people out there that believe Vick killed a child. That psychological impression is, in part, fostered by the use of language that anthropomorphises dogs. It establishes a false standard.

He slaughtered them. You can't murder a dog because murder only applies to human beings.

I don't mean to put word in your mouth.

I simply wish you would consider their effect.

I've got the WASP problem bad... I don't know how I would control myself if I came across anyone badly abusing or cruelly killing a helpless animal. I have too much attachment and empathy for my own good, but my respect for the human (knowing they've made discriminate, pre-meditated decisions to act like that) would slide to somewhere about the level of parsley. Leaving me with the feeling I'm always in a potential situation/state to break the law and get busted for badly busting someone. Don't think I'd be able to stop myself on that...

“And if you still have a problem with me on this I’m going to ask you another question: how many steps from “killing the bitch” does it take for the bitch not to be a dog but a woman? Where do we draw the lines, indeed?
Don’t come telling me we don’t need the lines.”

I think this is at the heart of it all.

Because most people aren’t elite athletes, have never been around elite athletes, have never stepped on the filed and competed against elite athletes they miss the reality of the potential. They have little to no understanding of the pain, endurance, discipline, sacrifice and intentional will it takes to be the best. The one thing Vick explodes is the myth of equality. Before Vick the Georgia dome couldn’t make rent, after Vick the Dome sold out. Why? Because he is a phenomenal specimen. He does things no other person can do. He is an exceptional human specimen with power, cunning and speed.

In Georgia they still understand, what that means. It took a genocidal psychopath like Andrew Jackson to move the “South” south of Northern Tennessee. The “South” that turned DeSoto on his heels. The South that bred a love for the Cross of Saint Andrew. The south full of Braves and Swamp Niggers – now they get called Seminoles. They killed efficiently, quietly, with cunning, power and skill. They took the “rock” to the hole before Naismith covered a bladder with leather.

The field sports are war games. The field games, in some places, are still played for blood. Because you never know when Atlanta will return to Jena. Some people are able to shoot, some up close, some are able to stab, some are able to choke, some are even able to do it face to face. Others use the media.

So yes, Sarah, I see the line. There is a line. D.W. Griffith shed more blood in the media, blurring the bitch’s line; now his successors in media have blurred the line again. Once more the specter of the “Feral Nigger” is on the field. Why do I argue for Vick. Because I know that when folk get scared for their “bitches” they won’t be able to tell the difference between Vick or Rodney King, or Emmet Till, or Me.

This is the formula for strange fruit – create a hysteria around the power and ferocity of a Black male. Add a good dose of fear and indignation, legitimize through a ritual of public ordeal – let simmer. I know that there are going to be dog fighting round ups all over this country. At first, it will be actual dog fights. Then, it will be those people who have pit bulls then, those with large breed dogs then, those with aggressive dogs, the those with dogs.

As the door of your house gets kicked in on a no knock warrant, the excuse will be we were checking for dogs. As you sit in a detention center awaiting trial the excuse will be we found evidence of dogs.

Vick is a convenient patsy and tremendous liability. But this isn’t about dogs. It’s about controlling a population. Disarming them, harassing them, habituating those around them to accept their harassment by creating the impression that they are criminals; dangerous criminals who will rape your wife, your daughter and slaughter your dog. This is about “those damn niggers.”

You’re arguing about dogs. I’m trying to tell you. As a black man. I can’t rely on the well wishes of white folk. The suit and tie don’t stop the police from beating the shit out of me. If I’m out walking a dog. The default assumption is I must be a drug dealer. It’s up to me to prove differently. Assuming they want to listen. You all are arguing about dogs. I’m arguing about my life. I know how bad it’s going to get.

They put nooses from a tree in Jena.
I believe them I know them.
They ain’t playing.

So hell yeah. We need lines.

of trouble right now if he had refrained from fighting dogs.
Or refrained from killing them for their failures.
Or refrained from backing his homies when they swent to fight dogs.
Or refrained from turning his property into a dog-fighting venue.
That's the whole of it.
I don't see the pareade of marshalls following Reggie Bush around, or Donovan McNabb, or Steve McNair.
Of course, they werent caught with a pit-full of dead dogs, a dog-fight ring.
It's pretty much that simple.

If they want to charge him with gambling fine. Would you do this if he were shooting craps? For me the dogs are just an additional fine.

And others see those dogs, who feel and hunger and experience pain and joy, as victims of a millionaire sadist, who for his amusement visited torture and suffering upon their flesh. Reasoned argument ends when the whip comes down.

The mind is artful, creative--a way to cohere the stimuli of the world as it comes at them, with all its violence and blather and nonsense and yearning. Tell me a dog has no rights, and take a measure of pride at taking a legal point for a walk around the block. When you come home, try hugging it. At least you have the right to try.

++++

Xen writes:

the idea of rights is based on the idea of a contract. The reality of rights issues forth from a social contract that can only be entered into through a rational exercise of will - assent.

I understand the argument. It's very powerful and I've used it myself.

But I've thought about this argument a lot, and I'm not sure we don't need to think of ways beyond it. (Leaving aside the obvious edge cases of infanticide and those deemed by the Nazis to be unworthy of life, and so on.)

What about a contract for torturing the dog? Is that an unconscionable contract? If not, why not?

What about a contract to buy and sell a human? Same question.

What about an employment contract between a human and an inhuman person like a corporation? Same question.

This seems to me to be similar to the argument that in technology, a tool is just a tool, it's only the use you make of it. Does that apply to the thumbscrew? The taser? The conceptual tool devised by a financier that sucks blood from millions (based on a contract, you notice).

I have no answers, but I think these questions need to be raised.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Now this I can get 100% on board with:

But this isn’t about dogs. It’s about controlling a population.

We know that's true about everything else, so why not this?

And this too:

This is the formula for strange fruit – create a hysteria around the power and ferocity of a Black male. Add a good dose of fear and indignation, legitimize through a ritual of public ordeal – let simmer.

Unless you think this and the immigration thing are some sort of coincidence instead of an emergent conspiracy. I'm telling you, finding "Vicks" and "nigger" in the search logs gives me the creeps (and is also a strong argument for using the word. I want Corrente to show up on some assholes hit list and make his head explode or start him thinking.

And, since this is the summer, shouldn't we be hearing about shark attacks and missing white women, instead of feral Negroes? Makes ya think...

This, however, I'm not on board with at all:

Because most people aren’t elite athletes, have never been around elite athletes, have never stepped on the filed and competed against elite athletes they miss the reality of the potential. They have little to no understanding of the pain, endurance, discipline, sacrifice and intentional will it takes to be the best. The one thing Vick explodes is the myth of equality. Before Vick the Georgia dome couldn’t make rent, after Vick the Dome sold out. Why? Because he is a phenomenal specimen. He does things no other person can do. He is an exceptional human specimen with power, cunning and speed.

Now, before this thread, I literally had no idea that Vicks was a black quarterback. And I can see how it would give a great many people a real dose of schadenfruede to bring an uppity nigger down:

IAGO
Thus do I ever make my fool my purse:
For I mine own gain'd knowledge should profane,
If I would time expend with such a snipe.
But for my sport and profit. I hate the Moor:
And it is thought abroad, that 'twixt my sheets
He has done my office: I know not if't be true;
But I, for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety. He holds me well;
The better shall my purpose work on him.
Cassio's a proper man: let me see now:
To get his place and to plume up my will
In double knavery--How, how? Let's see:--
After some time, to abuse Othello's ear
That he is too familiar with his wife.
He hath a person and a smooth dispose
To be suspected, framed to make women false.
The Moor is of a free and open nature,
That thinks men honest that but seem to be so,
And will as tenderly be led by the nose
As asses are.
I have't. It is engender'd. Hell and night
Must bring this monstrous birth to the world's light.

But nevertheless. Try it this way

Because most people aren’t elite __________, have never been around elite __________, have __________ s__________ and __________ against elite athletes they miss the reality of the potential. They have little to no understanding of the pain, endurance, discipline, sacrifice and intentional will it takes to be the best.

What if that paragraph were, say, about singers and Britney Spears... I dunno.

UPDATE Though it's almost inconceivable that a tragedy could be written about Britney Spears. About Michael Vicks?

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Championship teams.
Women's basketball.
So I'm not impressed with Michael Vick.
He's no different in my mind than George W. Bush.
He's a well-heeled heel.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

To do violence to another because you are in a position of power over the other is a vestige of the same sort of thinking that helped to create and enable slavery. Dogs in these verdant lands, before the ships sailed across the open seas, were not property. Before the White Man and Magical Parchment, the buffalo, the elk, the deer, the wolf--no law constructed by men could deem it so.

The dysfunctional, dissociative monotheism of the Middle East is where all the crumbs lead back to. The double crime against Africans is that, once enslaved by profiteers, they were twice enslaved in the dogma of their owners' religion. Yep, I said it. Yahweh, Moses, Jesus, Allah and all the rest hold out yet more chains to weigh down those most in need of release from the bonds of suffering. Religion is the mega prison for the mind, a vast and artful dodge that denies the faithful of their true spiritual inheritance: there isn't an atom of the Universe that isn't of it--call that god if you like. When the doors of illusion are cleansed (instead of smeared with fancy candle wax and blood-wine) what sights we see!

Belief is like a jailer
Who offers you a key
To free you from a prison
The jailer built for thee

Dogs, racism, media manipulation, religion--in all things reside all things. Tonight, pray for god, not to god. Maybe golden trinkets will tinkle-tinkle in your heart, and the immanent, ineffable mystery of the Universe that is our shared heritage can sneak a peek from beneath the shit-covered mound that passes for religion.

Let it all go. See who and what you are. See god/universe in the dog and in the trees and in the reflection in your looking glass. No more passing the buck, no more pointing to the malleable words of tribal priests--be god (heaven forfend) and then know you are not a slave, but a shareholder who is the all in all. And trust me, how then could you harm another?

++++

This seems to me to be similar to the argument that in technology, a tool is just a tool, it’s only the use you make of it.

Technology is never neutral. It's a technique. That is to say, a means or ensemble of means. As in means to an end. Intentionality is never neutral.

A contract is a technique of sanctioning coercion through meidated force.

Was not whether or not you were "impressed." It was whether or not you agree that physical prowess at a certain level of performance makes a difference in certain areas of life experience.

You may not agree with my assesment of Vick's athletic talents.

But the point I was alluding to was the fate of a fellow Texan Jack Johnson at the hands of an over-zealous law maker James Robert Mann.

Guess what y'all... this isn't about race. This is about race AND money. Look at how the media and the feds are handling this...

Tell me what the media coverage of Chris Benoit has revolved around. It has revolved around a tragic family man who was pulled into a life of consistent drugs and steroid use that ravaged his body, threw him into depression and caused him to commit such a heinous crime. Imagine if Michael Vick killed his wife and children... wait a minute... you see what they are doing to him about ALLEGEDLY killing dogs. I don't even want to know what they would do about the PROVEN killing of a person...

Speaking of the killing of a person... What about Danny Heatley killing his teammate while driving at extremely reckless speeds? Heatley did not go to jail, nor did he get suspended (correct me if I am wrong on this), and nor did he get any really negative feedback from fans/media. Danny Heatley, at the time a member of the Atlanta Thrashers, was CONVICTED of vehicular homicide in the death of his teammate Dan Snyder while driving too fast here in Atlanta.

What about the Patrick Kearney rape case. That happened in his house nonetheless and while he was present. When is he going to be suspended? Is alleged dog fighting more heinous or egregious than PROVEN rape? I'm patiently waiting on the NFL to say something.

Also Jonathan Babineaux, another Falcon player who is black by the way, killed his dog with a hammer. Let me repeat that... KILLED HIS DOG WITH A HAMMER. No one said anything, PETA or anyone else. Ahem... where was PETA? Oh... my bad, he has no money. I'm still waiting on the NFL... he's at training camp as we speak.

These guys have ALL broken the law and have yet to be punished for it as severely as Mr. Vick is being punished by the NFL or the media... AND he hasn't been convicted of anything. You are ALL hypocrites!

I hope that you are all vegetarians. As I see it, raising cattle to be slaughtered for human consumption (or pigs or goats or lamb or fish for that matter) is no different than raising and training dogs to fight, even to the death. The slaughter of animals is no less of a cause of death to the animals than a dog fight is a cause of death to the dogs. Generally the animals we eat are cut while alive so that they will bleed as much as possible - helps the quality of the meat.

The consumption of animals is no more necessary than a dog fight. Both are sheerly for human pleasure. Meat is a luxury.(everything you can get from meat from a sustenance and nutritional perspective can be gotten from non-meat sources) Assuming we were never lost in the wilderness in the winter, every single one of us could survive our entire natural lives without ever consuming meat.

Are you hypocrites as eager to refute the meat and poultry industries as you are to refute Michael Vick (who by the way you don't know what specifically he's done if anything.)? Hmmmmm? The reason why you Walt Disney raised children know nothing is because you are happy being ignorant. If these dogs looked like snakes or spiders i'm sure you'd have no problem with their fighting. You're only getting your collective panties in a wad because you're thinking about this emotionally and you all actually 'like' dogs.

Where is the logic. You wear leather right? You eat meat right? Where is the outrage about the industries that allow you those pleasures? The reason you're not upset with them is that you don't see the cruelty that goes into killing a cow.

I've thought for a while that it might be a good idea to make people slaughter an animal, in order to be licensed to eat meat. It would combat the sort of happiness in ignorance that people enjoy today. I know I know... you're saying that this isn't about eating meat it's about dog fighting... to that I say you fool! It's about the hypocrisy. The hypocrisy that allows you to say that this one way of being cruel to animals is ok while another way isn't. Cruelty is cruelty right? Or is cruelty only cruelty when it suits your selfish, hypocritical purposes?

We eat bacon because we take pleasure from it, not because it is necessary to our survival or health. It gives us pleasure, just as Mr. Vick took pleasure from watching dogs tear each other apart. In order for Mr. Vick to derive this pleasure, dogs had to be tortured; in order for us to derive the pleasure of eating bacon, pigs must be tortured.

I should add, incidentally, that what Vick's pit bulls went through during their miserable lives is a far cry from what a pig goes through in a factory farm. Barely out of the womb, piglets are held up by one leg and subjected to the following: without anesthetic, their genitals are cut off, their tails are cut off, their ears are sliced, and their teeth are pulled out with pliers. This is how they BEGIN their lives. The rest of it will be spent in a space barely large enough to move. It's essentially a life-long torture chamber for a sentient animal with a nervous system fully capable of feeling pain just like you do.

If you eat pork, you will be responsible for approximately one thousand of these life-long torture sessions. Vick only had, what, 70 dogs? It's not even close.

The only reason eating meat is legal is that we like it. And the only reason that Mr. Vick is being killed in the media is that he's black. I'm not surprised... it's been that way for well over a while now. It's not at all about cruelty to animals. If it were about cruelty to animals then Mr. Vick would not even be mentioned in the same breath as the meat and poultry industries.

Oh and you all act like we're SUPPOSED to trust the police and the FBI. *LOL* Are you kidding. Seriously tell me you're kidding. Why would I or Mr. Vick trust the police or the FBI? Oh I know... if you didn't do anything wrong you'd have nothing to fear right? Give me a damn break! I've seen planted evidence and beaten confessions too many times.

Vick ALLEGEDLY tortured and killed maybe a hundred dogs. This occurs every hour at Huntingdon Life Sciences and other corporations who specialize in animal testing, often for products like artificial sweeteners and cosmetics. Like most research companies, Huntingdon Life Sciences uses beagles as their dog of choice. Whereas Pit bulls are chosen for their ferocity, beagles are chosen for their docility. If you want to see what happens to these beagles, as well as cats, chimps and a virtual Noah's ark of other animals, visit this site:

[www.shac.net]

It's harrowing reading, and makes Vick's ALLEGED dog fights look like a walk in the park.

Once again we're talking about the torture of animals to produce products that give us pleasure. In this case dogs AND cats as well as our closest relatives in the animal kingdom. Yet while Vick is being crucified in the media and many here calling for his head on a stake, there is narry a peep about the infinitely more monstrous and vastly larger torture operations taking place in research facilities across the country and the world.

Let's also take a look at Nike while we're at it. Take a look at this video

[youtube.com]

It seems that Nike actually hired dogs that were trained to attack one another. They also hired cameramen to film them as well as handlers to handle the dogs... YET they now want to frown upon dogfighting when they actually MADE a commercial that glorified dogfighting as street and hip in order to hawk some shoes. So.... Nike DOES like the competitiveness of dogfighting.... ain't that a shock?

Boy y'all damn white people kill me!

(Disclaimer: The above sentence was merely an attempt at humor. Not an invitation. I know y'all hate us for whatever reason, forgive us for not wanting to work in cotton fields from "can't see" until "can't see" for no pay or not wanting to have our babies cut out of our stomachs when we weren't obedient enough.)

Oh... and to you people supporting PETA:

[www.nokillnow.com]

Enjoy...

well said uncontainable spirit

You have made a number of points, but you defeat yourself with the same easy labeling that is a part of demonizing others to gain an advantage, for by decrying the other as foul you, but dint of calling the other out, remain the voice of reason who can see into the minds and hearts of others. That's some big magic there.

A couple of observations: Uncontainable Spirit (US for the rest of this comment) wrote I hope that you are all vegetarians. Since you brought it up, I will answer: yes, I am a vegetarian, for all the reasons you have described. It is the politics of corporate meat that made the ingesting of animal flesh no longer possible for me. I don't believe that eating meat is wrong, but eating the meat of animals that have been tortured & abused (with who-knows-what-all has been injected into them) is no longer an option for me. I ate meat for years, and enjoyed much of it. I stopped eating pork first, then cows and finally chicken, turkey, etc. because it would be hypocritical of me to do so. I made my politics merge with my morality, and do not reget my choice. The last hard step for me has been dairy products, but I know that the calves of the cows used for their milk are "sold into misery" as veal, and so stopped drinking milk. Ice cream was next. As I wrote in another comment, Jung stated that "an increase in consciousness comes with an increase in moral weariness." I am weary of all the pain and suffering, and so have changed my diet. I guess its a selfish act, but there it is.

US further wrote: AND he hasn’t been convicted of anything. Gotta have a trial for that, and Vick pled guilty, so...

US wrote: You are ALL hypocrites! Again, the great wide paint brush is used, the better to smear the wall. Please, use some discretion with your mighty wagging finger. You could poke someone's eye out with it.

US wrote: The reason why you Walt Disney raised children know nothing is because you are happy being ignorant. You have come to a progressive blog that questions much that is taken for granted by the wider world we live in. You state that those who write here "know nothing" are "hypocrites" and used to be tucked into bed at night by dear old Uncle Walt. Well, zippity doo dah, we awl shud jus' shut our pieholes. May I suggest you don't take on the worst characteristics of our MSM overlords when making a point. It ill suits your purpose.

There was a time when American school children were taught that American Indians made use of all aspects of the kill, from the organs to the meat to the hide to the bones, and this organic fact was esteemable. After a successful hunt (I'm thinking plains Indians and buffalo) a ceremony (ritual) would be held to communicate with the great animal spirits to reconcile the guilt (again, an increase in consciousness comes with an increase in moral weariness) and to establish a relationship with their prey. Joseph Campbell retold a Blackfoot legend about how the Buffalo Dance ritual began.
In that tale was an example of an uniquely human need to connect in a meaningful way with the animals we (they) must killl to survive. We have lost much with the degredation of native American Indians, as we have lost so much as a people in our failure to address the collective shame and guilt (and fear) vis a vis slavery. A whole lot of cost, and so much misery gained.

US wrote: Vick ALLEGEDLY tortured and killed maybe a hundred dogs. This occurs every hour at Huntingdon Life Sciences and other corporations who specialize in animal testing, often for products like artificial sweeteners and cosmetics. Um, by pressing the all caps key when typing ALLEGEDLY you only draw out the haters (present company excepted). Hint: when a plea is pled we do the legal tango from "alleged" to "pled it." My posting, as I have noted before in other comments, was not about Vick, but rather about inflicting pain upon another, and about then proscribing the boundaries of one's compassion. By delimiting the horizon we soon cannot see past our own noses. As for animal testing: I owe much to my wife in terms of knowing what companies test (needlessly) on animals for their products (really, how many Draize tests do you need before you know that stuff that burns might not be fun to have in your eyes). There is an entire industry built up around animal testing so that when whoever is sued for a toxic product can simply go and point at animal tests and look for a cheap settlement or dismissal of a particular case. The animal testers profit, and the lawyers get an easy fix, and the animals go blind and howl in utter agony unto the night.

I am glad Uncontainable Spirit dropped by, but I do suggest, as an uppity white man, that by invoking the "you all is crazy/hypocritical/Disneyfied" people takes away from your points, and enhances none of them. I don't take my walking orders from PETA or DailyKos or Yahweh/God/Allah. I take them from my wife, like any good pussified gentleman should.

++++

UPDATE: here is a link to a post I wrote in May of this year, regarding the industrialization of slaughter in the United States.

If you wonder about my beliefs beyond animal abuse a link to a "chat" I gave can be found here.

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I'm not a vegetarian -- probably should become one for a lot of reasons, but the simple fact is I grew up on a farm. I understand where milk and butter and ice cream come from (and no, we didn't run a commercial dairy, so the calves didn't go to veal pens; heifers would eventually have a few more calves, and steers would eventually go to market; this is how we paid the property taxes on the farm, and financed the upkeep of the buildings and equipment, and bought the feed to keep all the critters going through the drought and winter).
I'm as careful as I can be about what I eat and where I buy it. Much as possible, it's something I've had a hand in raising. That said, a market is only as good as its buyers, and if you've got any idea what goes into commercial feed (arsenic in chicken is not a conspiracy theorist's fantasy, just for starters) or you've ever been around confinement operations (commercial dairy or feedlot) you know as well as I do that the animals in those conditions ... well... best to not dwell too long on that, eh?

Now, if US is serious about this, the person who authored that claim will use nothing but vegetable shortening, wear no leather, wool, fur, nor silk, use no commercial soaps of any kind for any reason, consume no honey, wine or mead, and have no varnished or painted possessions, never mind using no glues and eschewing all cosmetics.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!-- Xan

Excellent posts both. As long as my points are understood I'm fine. I wrote the post before the plea. I copied it and forgot to edit it. The points still remain regardless of the plea.

Good hearing from you both... oh and don't worry... some of my best friends are white.

heh heh

I hope Michael Vick dies. Worthless piece of s**t. Portis should be killed also. Ignorant hick pieces of s**t. I'd kill them myself if we lived in some 3rd world country where I could get away with it.

F*** all you worthless s**ts who believe in animal cruelty also. If you treat your dog like this and I see you, I'll end your life then and there. You can bet on that and you can bet there are plenty like me out there. Watch your backs sadists.

May i remind Mr Portis that some years back his decendants were "property " also. Thankfully that changed. However some have never shaped up....mr vick, mr portis, mr simpson, mr sharpton, mr jackson...etc SAM SCHIFANO

Not all people who make grammatical errors are morons by any means; English she is a tricky language and even native speakers of same can err. But there is one I have found over the years to be an almost unfailing indicator of moronosity: the use of "descendant" when what is meant is "ancestor."

I don't know why this is; I just note it. File it under "Rules of Thumb."

... that all of our readers have opposable thumbs.

Take big guy. Please.

We. Are. Going. To. Die. We must restore hope in the world. We must bring forth a new way of living that can sustain the world. Or else it is not just us who will die but everyone. What have we got to lose? Go forth and Fight!—Xan

Motherfuckers out. Do IT!@ NOW! they're shitheels, and assholes and athletes who--white or black--get breaks the rest of us can only dream of.
indeed, put every fucking asshole jock-thug in jail--and release all the pot users, too.

That does NOT diminish one fucking chinchilla the crimes Vick committed (and apparently still cannot refrain from doing), does npt reduce his involvement, does not excuse his actions...

sher, treat 'em all the same...I'm down widdat...

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner

"In my haste, I said, 'All men are liars.'" Psalms 116.

Here's the deal.
Michael Vick is NO LESS a criminal for being a football superstar. Indeed, arguably his status as a potential role model for aspiring football players makes his criminal behavior the more egregious. That he is handsome, talented, and well-heeled are inarguable.

Michael Vick is NO LESS stupid for being a black man. Indeed, his flunking a drug test feeds into stereotypes (Ricky Williams, anybody?) that the NFL, not to mention black males (consider how mmany of the literally hundreds of thousands of men in prison on dope charges are black) in general, don't need to have reinforced.

But that doesn't mean he's MORE of a heel because he's black, or that he deserves a more stringent punishment, or that he should be held accountable for behaviors his peers are not held accountable for.

Otherwise we're not talking about justice.

DeShawn Quattrail Brown should be in jail for what he did to Mercy.
Michael Vick should be in jail for what he did to I don't-know-how-many dogs.

But they shouldn't be in jail for being black men who did indescribably cruel and vicious things to animals.

They should be in jail for being humans who did indescribably vicious and cruel things to animals, regardless of the color of their skin or the size of their paychecks.

We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0

For true?

I'm not for lynching anybody.
Did I say anything about it?
All I said was, athletes, any and all of them, should they be convicted of crimes, should face the same sanctions that would befall anyone else who was caught at the same violations.
I got fired when, in 1973, i committed and was caught at my one foray into 'crime.' Shit, I was fired as soon as the company got word i'd been arrested. And I was not invited back. Anfod I injured not a single soul. Why should a fella who beats his wife, or kills and fights dogs, be treated any different just because he plays some popular sport well? Fucking bust 'em all.

Me? A Quick Study, But A Slow Learner