In the whole WVWV thing, it's amusing, and also depressing, to see how very low the bar has been lowered for proving the nefarious racist intent of All Things Related To Hillary (and also Obama, but, like, not really, because mumblemumble stupid b!tch!).

And, like we all predicted, Old Racist Faithful blows again, in advance of an election where Obama's on the ropes.

... in the ABC debate, someone called Ed Schultz and made an accusation about the source of certain the questions.

Schultz said the fact that someone could even suspect something meant there was a problem.

I guess it would irresponsible not to suspectulate.

but it's been infested with parasites. And really, they are a small bunch.

The problem with the online OFB is that when Hillary wins the nomination, it will prove their irrelevance, along with that of the MSM. They have to fight to the death to retain relevance and that's all we're seeing. Ego-driven, rather than principle-driven children playing with the fate of folks like your friend who's feet are bloodied.

I noticed this tendency years ago, but overestimated their affinity for principles of justice. Fighting for FISA is a fight that requires no personal sacrifice. Universal health care does, hence their desire for the former and ignoring of the latter. I notice much the same in the huge mega-churches where railing against abortion (which requires little to no personal sacrifice) is more important than the more obvious Christian ideals that require much more personal sacrifice.

As I pointed out on the Digby thread, it wasn't that long ago that the front page of the Daily Kos was taking Limbaugh to task for his complaints about Women's Voices, Women Vote. In less than two years, some of these guys have become what they once mocked.

Has me very concerned. There is no excuse for calling registered voters and telling them that they are not registered, no excuse at all. If Republicans did that I would be calling for their prosecution from the roof tops. So what is going on here?

We need more an better answers from WVWV. It is also a lesson that if you let a group use your name you better vet it first.

Did Rove insert one of his operatives in WVWV? It is the perfect sabotage, corrupt a voter registration group and have it do your voter suppression for you.

We need to know more, much much more.

apart from everything else, if you tell registered voters that they are not registered, then they are going to call up the registrar just to make sure they are registrar, this sucks up the registrar's time just when they need every spare moment to cope with the historic surge of voter registration applications coming in. This is very destructive and we need answers.

I am withholding judgment until we know more, but as someone who has done a great deal of voter registration work, I am profoundly disturbed by this.

DBC, on "tell registered voters," you're repeating the OFB talking points, and that, and a dime, will get you a cup of coffee.

A story like this is in the detail, and I'm not sure what the detail is, at this point. Shit, I don't even trust YouTubes from these guys. Why would I? The timing and the people pushing it have all the earmarks of a Department of Changing the Subject disinformation campaign from the Obama campaign. If we had a media critique, I'd look into it, but the A listers already pissed that away, and at this point, I trust them as much as I trust our famously free press; less, if anything, if they're driven by their comments section! We know what those fever swamps are like. [UPDATE: I understand your concerns as a registrar, but that's also what would make a disinformation campaign work, eh? It's a hot button.]

The organization has been in existence for a long time. It's got both Obama and Hillary supporters on the board. It's been doing good work registering women.

When somebody reasonably neutral looks at this -- and both TalkLeft and OpenLeft have been skeptical -- I'll invest energy in it. Until that point, I'm not calling for anybody to explain anything. Why would I?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

That's all it is. There's no conspiracy here.

I've been using voter registration rolls to call voters on behalf of Clinton and let me tell you they suck ass. They're routinely out of date, with bad information. I've called women who turned out to be men. Democrats who turned out to be Republican. And lots of bad contact information. Disconnected numbers, wrong numbers, no numbers. It's even harder to keep track of young and lower income voters or other apartment renters (as opposed to home owners) because they tend to move more.

It should be easy to tell who is registered and who isn't. From my experience it's not. Hell, according to Robert F. Kennedy, a million voters have shown up this election cycle who should've been registered, but weren't. So it's possible to call a voter who thinks she's registered and end up with one who isn't.

WVWV isn't some new organization that just started doing this. They did it before the 2006 elections (which helped democrats because most women are democratic).

I know the Bush Administration has trained us all to be vigilant, but sometimes a fuck up is just a fuck up. WVWV general election effort (NC was one of 24 states being targeted) got tangled with the NC primary effort. I'm going to believe that (Occam's razor and everything) until there's some sort of evidence that I shouldn't. Otherwise, I'm just helping the OFB do the GOP dirty work for them and cut the legs out from under an organization that works to register women, who tend to be democrats, to vote.

It is possible to get them from the electoral board. They won't sell them to just anyone, so sometimes you have to go through third parties, but it should be possible to get the list and not a list of "people with the characteristics of registered voters."

I appreciate what is said about the OFB and the timing of this story, but the fact that several states have made complaints to the group and now the AG of NC is looking into it makes me think that this is bigger than the fever swamps.

Why didn't WVWV act on the earlier complaints from the states, and why were to board members unaware of those complaints?

answers are needed. I am withholding judgment, but we certainly need answers.

way over rated and over used.

Everyone seems to think/pretend/behave as if elections/primaries are neat lab experiments. Irregularities, such as WVWV and worse, happen all the time in elections. They happened many times this cycle as well.

There are plenty of reasons; not all your supporters are equally decent. Organization, small and big, tend to get to the end without regard to the means. Election are run by a large and largely autonomous organizations and individuals. Mostly, it doesn't amount to much. Those that make threats using irregularities, will make those threats anyway.

... in the context of voter registration drives?

(And after all those burdens of proof are met, there's still the Clintonian Mind Control aspect of all this...)

And I'm not joining in any campaigns for "answers" from anyone. That's the essence of a haka. Goes right back to TravelGate, which these clowns seem to be emulating these days. Or Vince Foster. Or Muslim garb, for that matter, which turned out to be from Drudge. Evidence and reasoning, please.

And as far as the AG of NC... I'd want to know who the AG of NC supports, first. And I'll wait for Easely to weigh in, too. No doubt the OFB are working feverishly to discredit him, too.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Finding examples of sexism in the lefty blogosphere. http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2...

as I understand it is complaints from electoral boards. When your organization gets a complaint from the Commonwealth of Virginia that it has been making a pest of itself, you are obliged to look into. Had they acted on earlier complaints they would not be in the mess they are in. At least, if my understanding is correct. As I say, I am withholding judgment, but we need more answers. WVWV has not been handling this well at all. Directly the controversy launched their executive director or chief flack should have been on Daily Kos with a detailed explanation. Of course they have to vet their statements with lawyers, but it is possible to do that and get ahead of the story.

I continue to withhold judgment.

About the WVWV faux scandal quoting an Obama supporter who knows a little about voter suppression, and he says this ain't it.

As some of you know, I consider voter suppression to be worse than a crime against democracy. It is a crime against humanity.

I have a great deal of experience predicting it, spotting it, opposing it. I simply don't believe the WVWV project is it.

He calls the response that of an out of control mob, which seems about right. If you want, you can counter the bullying with a donation to WVWV -- it's tax deductible, I discovered.

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do;jse...

Fair using a short article in HuffPo from William McNary:

During five election cycles, I have worked with the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition where I co-directed targeted voter registration campaigns and 'get out the vote' efforts to the African American community. I have also had the great privelege of serving on the Board of Directors of Women's Voices, Women Vote -- a non profit, non partisan organization whose mission is registering underrepresented Americans, primarily, unmarried women.

I am also a voter. And in this election, I am supporting Barack Obama, whom I've known and worked with for years. I am also an elected delegate to the Democratic Convention for Barack Obama.

Given my candidate preference and my background and associations in voter registration efforts, I can say with great conviction, there was no effort to suppress or confuse African American voters, or any other voters in the state of North Carolina by Women's Voices, Women Vote.

I have seen up close the work of Women's Voices. Women Vote and know well the commitment, passion and leadership our organization has shown in helping make the voices of unmarried women and other underrepresented voters heard. There may have been mistakes made in this particular registration drive in North Carolina, but Women's Voices, Women Vote's motives were not malicious or intended in any way to confuse voters. Ironically, just the opposite. I know the staff is making every effort to right the situation.

Of course, given that McNary is an Obama supporter, and black, that only proves that the Clintonian Mind Control rays emanating from Mount Evil, and directed by She Who Must Not Be Named, are all that more awsumly effective....

NOTE Said it before, I'll say it again: The real problem the OFB has here is that women are being registered.

UPDATE And check the comments section for more of teh stupid. Here's the first one:

Yes, I see the commitment and passion at work: Commitment to hijacking the nomination for the Clintons by any means necessary.

Matters, unbelievably -- or all too believable -- go downhill from there:

It sounded illegal and misleading and no amount of spin will change that.
They got caught and now they are trying to weasel out of it like a naughty child.
This proves Hillary Clinton is a republican.

Lie down with dogs....

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

You mean this "McNary"?

William McNary Speaks Out in Support of WVWV
May 1st, 2008
Statement of William McNary, President of USAction, Co-Executive Director Citizen Action/Illinois and Board Member of Women’s Voices, Women Vote

During five election cycles, I have worked with the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition where I co-directed targeted voter registration campaigns and ‘get out the vote’ efforts to the African American community. I have also had the great privelege of serving on the Board of Directors of Women’s Voices, Women Vote – a non profit, non partisan organization whose mission is registering underrepresented Americans, primarily, unmarried women.

I am also a voter. And in this election, I am supporting Barack Obama, whom I’ve known and worked with for years. I am also an elected delegate to the Democratic Convention for Barack Obama.
http://www.wvwv.org/

Cause the Boiz pain! Why not?

NOTE Yes, McNary. Above...

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Judging from his photo, I'm guessing he's, erm, a pretty distant cousin. But it's nice for one of us to be in the spotlight every 68 years or so.

But I still believe
And I will rise up with fists!!

It is possible to get them from the electoral board.

first DC blogger lies about phone calls being made to "registered voters and telling them that they are not registered." Never happened. Didn't even come close to happening.

and now DCblogger want us to believe that the elections board keeps track of unregistered, unmarried women.

I really think we deserve a higher quality Obama troll here...

but I'm still waiting for a clear explanation of what the problem is.

So far all I've seen from the OFB is "This group with "Women" in its name (twice) is doing something and there is some attenuated connection to HILLARY so it must be bad."

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Real ponies don't oink - Patrick McManus

DCB's done other good posts here. I think their hot button got punched, is all.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

of unmarried, unregistered women, I want a copy of the list.

(Purely as a public service, I will go out and try to personally persuade each of them to register to vote.)

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Real ponies don't oink - Patrick McManus

Election boards can't even keep track of voters' gender, party, and (especially) contact information.

It was a real joy, btw, to think - based on CA data - I was calling a 60+ woman who was a registered democrat to talk about Hillary only to end up discussing her with a 60+ male Republican who supported McCain.

telling people to make sure they are registered by contacting their voter registrar.

"Vote caging" is when the voter lists are improperly purged of eligible voters.

Calling people up and telling them they are not registered so don't show up to vote, suggesting they are illegally registered and will be arrested if they try to vote and/or falsely telling them their polling place has changed are bad.

Sending out a voter registration packet to registered voters seems like a stupid way to try to cheat.

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Real ponies don't oink - Patrick McManus

Solely to help register voters, of course ;).

I meant a list of registered voters. If you know who the registered voters are, you should not be calling those people. Just take the names of the people you are considering calling, the run it by the list of registered voters, and remove anyone already registered.

Don't be so quick to call someone an Obama troll. In fact, better not to call someone a troll unless you have substantial evidence to back it up.

sheesh

Paul, you're wrong on the "troll."

DCB, I'm not seeing any linky goodness or analysis.

Apparently, we've got registrars (more than one?) on this thread; I'd be interested in hearing more about how this shit really get done. The OFB's methodology on this is absolutely like the freeper serifs haka: What can be done easily when digital is assumed to be done easily under field conditions in RL.

And for me, McNary's note is dispositive. He's a fucking Obama supporter, and now these lunatics are going after him. It's not even malicious, let alone a plot by Hillary.

That makes the issue the haka, and what the haka says about those who are driving it, not who's a troll and who's not.

Sheesh, indeed.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I meant a list of registered voters. If you know who the registered voters are, you should not be calling those people

they aren't calling people they think are registered. They are calling phone numbers that they think belong to unregistered, unmarried women.

AND HERE'S A FREAKING CLUE -- election boards don't give out phone numbers

HERE'S ANOTHER FREAKING CLUE -- sometimes unmarried, unregistered women live in the same domicile as registered voters

I mean, we're supposed to take "reasonable" Obama supporters seriously when they can't figure this much out? when they ASSUME -- based on nothing -- that WWVA is wasting their time and money calling people they know are registered?

There is no excuse for calling registered voters and telling them that they are not registered

That is a very strained reading of what actually went down. The calls say that voter registration materials will be arriving in the mail soon, and "all you have to do" is send them in. Somewhere in the telling that became "you have to" send them in, with an implied threat.

The part that might be dubious is "Lamont Williams," when it seems no such person exists, but that's a thin filament on which to hang a racist conspiracy. I don't take it personally when the satellite TV company says that it's "Bill" calling with an exciting free-installation offer, even though the guy's name might not actually be Bill.

sorry, I don't have any links to back up my statements.

I read Adam B's summary of this, haven't read anything by the OFB. I also have been watching this on Open Left. That is the only source of information I have on all this.

Yes, unmarried, unregistered women do live in the same domicle as registered voters.

here is what I have done in the past: purchase an cd edition of the Hanes Directory (also known as reverse directory to the uninitiated). Run a match with your copy of the registered voters list (I did this while volunteering for a local Dem committee a few years ago)

Pull all the NAMES of registered voters.

Example: John Smith living at 123 Suburban Place is a registered voter. June Smith lives at the same address, but is not registered. So, in your purge you pull John, but NOT June Smith.

When you call ask for June Smith.

Also, don't use robo calls, use human beings. More expensive, but far more effective.

So it is possible.

I just want more information. Since this organization has links to both Obama and Clinton, I acquit Clinton or any funny stuff. I just want more answers from WVWV, more to the purpose, so does the NC AG.

What do we know about the NC AG?

and the next act of the truth squad will be to deam illegal any campaigning by Hillary because it is damaging to his campaign

“But Obama has rejected any solution based solely on the statewide outcome of the Florida and Michigan primaries.
"Our response to that has been essentially crickets chirping," said Kirk Wagar, Obama's finance director.”

There is a big difference between common garden variety type Obama supporters and the OFB. It is necessary to draw the distinction.

I don't know who I support. First it was Gore, then Edwards, then reluctantly Clinton, now I go back and forth. If I were to decide based upon what I hear from the media and the OFB, I would be totally Clinton.

Truthfully I am pretty discouraged, which is why I have been sticking to single payer posting.

Thanks for linking! I would love any examples you've got, especially from the big blogz. :-)

DCB:

0. Nobody needs to post on anything they don't to post on. The UCF stuff is great, please keep at it, we're building the record, and we are so going to need this after the general.

1. I agree on the distinction, totally. That's why there's an acronym, OFB, to handle that case. (Though when I was still commenting at DK, I could have wished for the supporters to rein in the fans.)

2. I'd say, repeating point 0 in a different way, that if you're not comfortable with the cut-and-thrust that happens in firestorm, then you don't have to engage in it. Let it play itself out, and if the end state is something that shocks the conscience, call bullshit (with linky goodness, of course ;-).

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I heard this on All Things Considered tonight:

This sounds like a classic example of voter suppression — sowing confusion in order to drive down turn-out. The calls seemed to be aimed at African-American communities, places where Illinois Sen. Barack Obama is expected to run well ahead of New York Sen. Hillary Clinton.

...

Will Evans of the Center for Investigative Reporting , who collaborated in reporting this story, found some Obama backers among the Women's Voices leadership, but the group mostly has ties to Clinton and her campaign. Founder Page Gardner worked on former President Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign. Board member John Podesta was President Clinton's chief-of-staff. Maggie Williams, Hillary Clinton's campaign manager, used to be on the Women's Voices leadership team and did consulting work for them.

They said there were incidents in about ten states.

Now, instead of Drudge to WaPo, we've got Kos to NPR.

Ain't life grand?

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I've read that registered voters are receiving these packets, or unregistered voters are recieving these packets and it has been happening in MULTIPLE STATES!!!!, so therefore it's got to be a coordinating campaign to suppress votes.

The first example was from Wisconsin. There, the claim was that WVWV was sending out registration packets past the registration mail in end date. But Wisconsin has same date registration, and if their voter registration card didn't come in time, then they could register when they vote.

The next example was from Arkansas where county registrars were upset because the majority of people who sent in the voter registration paperwork were already registered and it was an annoyance to them.

The next example was from Florida where the packets stated "To comply with state voting requirements, please return the enclosed application." The registrars were unhappy with the wording because some registered voters received them and then called said registrar and they had to get up and answer the phones. Oh my!

The last example was in North Carolina where they have actually been sending these packets out for MONTHS and there is documented praise from the Deputy Director of the State Board of Elections for the number of voters that WVWV managed to register. The confusion arose from the fact that the mail-in deadline had passed, but same day registration was still an option during early voting. Since same day early voting registration is a new law enacted in 2007, and WVWV has been active in NC registration efforts for several years, I'm guessing that was due to not be up-to-date in that legislation.

So most of the complaints of SUPRESSION are nothing more than general confusion that accompanies every election, but folks are really sensitized lately. As far as the registrars having the vapors because they have to answer phones, tough. Democracy is messy sometimes.

The NPR story doesn't include the exculpatory material from McNary.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

They are very good at leveraging Clinton hate to get the media to try to change the topic.

How targeting an organization that registers women voters is going to heal the party if Obama is the nominee, I have no idea. At the rate they're going, they're headed for one of those principled 60-40 losses. You know the kind so many liberal elites love because even though they lost, they feel superior.

BTW, did anyone see the Obamas on the Today Show. I saw a brief synopsis and it sounded rather whiney, but it was too brief to really be sure of the judgment. I've tried to find a transcript, but haven't been able to. I'll admit that I don't really have the stomach to watch them on video these days. Between the racism smears and the misogyny, I can't stand to listen to him anymore. Which is astonishing because a year ago I fully expected to be a big Obama supporter.

There's been no sign of that so far, so why would things change? The goal is to take it over. Period.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

They have no interest in healing the party or in Unity.

Wasabi, check the thread before pulling the trigger. I already quoted that material. Add some commentary, perhaps.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

When you call ask for June Smith.

Also, don’t use robo calls, use human beings. More expensive, but far more effective.

So it is possible.

WVWV us trying to do outreach to hundreds of thousands of unmarried women in each state. They are a non-partisan group with a limited budget -- so unless you want to pony up a couple of million out of your own pocket for "live callers", or you prefer that hundreds of thousands of women in one of the most reliably DEMOCRATIC demographic categories go unregistered, its robo-calls.

And that is what this is really about -- Obots getting the vapors because WVWV is registering unmarried women, and they are afraid that those women will voter for Clinton.

I read Adam B’s summary of this, haven’t read anything by the OFB. I also have been watching this on Open Left. That is the only source of information I have on all this.

and who told you that registered voters were being told they weren't registered?

Who gave you the idea that WVWV had unlimited funds to fulfill their mission?

Charges of racism or voter suppression really need to be checked out carefully before being made because it goes to the core of what it means to be a Democrat. I'm really dissapointed in NPR with this story.

everytime you use it you owe me .00000001 in royalties.

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Real ponies don't oink - Patrick McManus

We'll just keep a running tab, myiq. Check with Geoff, the bartender in the Executive Cloakroom of The Mighty Corrrente Building whenever you want to get the total. The password is "specimen jar."

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Pro-Obaman and Pro-Palestinian, forget donations for that No Thanks.
I like my Democracy neat, not shaken, not stirred.

God forbid women should be allowed to vote "gasp"

"The great divide in this country is not by race or even income, it's by those who think they are better than everyone else and think they should play by a different set of rules," --Bill Clinton

Geoff said "This way to the egress"

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Real ponies don't oink - Patrick McManus

What's wrong with Pro-Palestinian?

... with "pro-Palestinian" is the IMHO all-to-common scenario where the lefty narrative focuses only on the sins of Israel and turns a deaf ear to the ongoing embrace of terrorism on the part of the Palestinians.

On this issue, I often find the left truly is precisely as wrongly one-sided as the MSM is with its slanted narrative, which is that Israel can do no wrong.

What Jimmy Carter has tried to do in the mainstream -- shaking up their unilateral view -- very few seem to be trying to do in the leftysphere, and usually they get cowed by flamewars that make the Hillbama battle look like a love-in.

As the promoter of the term "equivalation," I'm not one to say both sides are de facto equally wrong. In I/P, there's never a shortage of wrong to go around. Who's wronger than the other I'll leave to someone with the wisdom of Solomon or his Arab counterpart.

My dog in that hunt is that the world needs to repudiate religion and nationalism, and until it does, we're fucked. IMHO, neither party's religion-based claims should be treated any particular respect, and the adoption of forefathers' grievances is a comparable dead-end. Alas, religion and nationalism are given the highest respect the world over. So, again, we're fucked.

The voter registration drives happen around the time of primaries because we know that people who aren't registered to vote, realize that they aren't registered to vote with all the drama going on around the election and they get interested in registering to vote. That's why it's done now.

I know of no way that what WVWV campaign could have suppressed any votes whatsoever. People don't refrain from voting because of a robocall - it's just now how it works.

There has probably never been a voter registration drive that hasn't provoked some complaints. People misunderstand what is said to them. People don't read the form right. People doing the registration make mistakes. Heck, I'm registered "decline to state" because of the Republican joker whom I filled out a voter reg form with years and years ago and have never changed it. Was that nefarious? Probably, but not seriously so.

Obama obviously thinks he's going to lose and is trying to find a way to delegitimize Hillary's win. That's all this is.

that's their playbook and they're sticking with it.

Sounds a fucking lot like some other fucking group I can't remember the name of . . .

oh yeah, republicans.

I'm afraid that we will have to agree to disagree on the Palestine front. There's basically no equivalence between the Israeli side and the Palestinians side, and no comparison. The "ongoing embrace of terrorism" is propaganda plain and simple and is part of the discourse that holds the (much) weaker party to a (much) greater standard.

I was trying to say that we'll have to agree to disagree on the Israel/Palestine issue. The "ongoing embrace of terrorism" business is just propaganda and part of a discourse that holds the much weaker party to a much greater standard.

If it was pro-palestinian fine, but usually it comes with anti-Israeli sentiment. Let's not forget where this started (Carter and Brezezinski) catch Zbig's interview here http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.p...
basically the Carter/Zbig strategy was communist threat, establish a buffer (overthrow Shah of Iran and establish fundamental Islam) the result was of course um current Xenophobic Iran.
The secondary thing that Carter/Zbig did was establish the Al-Qaeda in Afghanastan (see article for Zbigs take on that)and via that the Hamas. I read this interview hard copy at my local Border's. The top of the mag cover has his name on it.

Brzezinski may sound familiar because daughter Mika Brzezinski is with MSNBC(Obama Hdquarters as it is fondly called), and Mike Brzezinski has been active in foreign policy.

Zbig is currently associated with Obama and has been seen with his campaign on and off.

Very pro-palestinian very Anti Israeli.

That being said.

Now to say pro-Israeli is not a vote against palestine, however a pro-palestinian vote is a vote to destroy Israel.
Imagine Rhode Island with the entire US and Canada wanting to flatten it killing every last man woman and jew in Rhode Island.
This is Israel. Lest one thinks that I only read about this stuff, I also asked my nephew, who lived there for 3 mos what his take was.

Israel has more muslims in its little stretch of land than the entire middle east has jews. Who exactly is xenophobic here?

The moment that support is taken away from Israel, is the moment we sign the death warrant of a nation.
I believe it is irresponsible to listen to only one side, and not understand the ramifications of your actions.
The fact is Israel has conceded over and over and over again, especially under the pro-palestinan Carter, and it has led to deaths of Israeli's and broken faith.
I think it was an act of aggression for Carter to go to the middle east and negotiate with the Hamas.

"The great divide in this country is not by race or even income, it's by those who think they are better than everyone else and think they should play by a different set of rules," --Bill Clinton

And because we've gotten so much CT stuff on that topic from anti-Semites, it also triggers the spam filters. Just sayin.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

I just have to say that I disagree 100% with jeqal on the substance of the issue and hope I'm not a fringe minority here and leave it at that.