[Welcome, C&L readers! And please consider returning tomorrow, Thursday, Feb. 4, 1:00PM EST, for a live blog with Dr. Margaret Flowers of PNHP, member of the Baucus 8, who's been practicing civil disobedience for single payer. -- lambert]
[UPDATE Since Dr. Flowers will be taping a show with Bill Moyers at the previously scheduled time, we're rescheduling, hopefully to this weekend. --lambert]
When I heard that historian and activist Howard Zinn died on Wednesday, I wondered how (or even if) NPR would cover his death. They have quite a track record of glorifying some of the vilest characters of the right (e.g. torture apologist and dictator loving Jeanne Kirkpatrick, economist Milton Friedman, and Jerry Falwell) when their lives come to an end, so I wondered how an avowedly leftist person such as Zinn would fare.
When I searched the NPR site the next morning, the only piece was there at the time was from the AP feed that NPR now features on its website. Though the AP article featured Arthur Schlesinger's snide remark - "I don't take him very seriously. He's a polemicist, not a historian" - it did give a fair bit of substance regarding Zinn's WWII service, his academic background, his profound influence, and his consistent bravery in taking on various injustices as an activist. But...
Then came the NPR "remembrance" on ATC, cooked up by NPR history distorter, Allison Keyes. Keyes must have some seriously limited research abilities because for comments about Zinn, she could only come up with Noam Chomsky (makes sense), Julian Bond (okay), and David Horowitz...seriously, Keyes turns to the extremist, right-wing Horowitz, sleazy polemicist "with no...actual occupation" and "no academic credentials" so he can weigh in on the scholarship and character of Howard Zinn. The result ain't pretty. Keyes, dignifying Horowitz with the title of a "conservative pundit and author," tells us that he "calls A People's History of the United States a travesty." She also includes sound bites of Horowitz saying,
"There is absolutely nothing in Howard Zinn's intellectual output that is worthy of any kind of respect," and "Zinn represents a fringe mentality which has unfortunately seduced millions of people at this point in time. So he did certainly alter the consciousness of millions of younger people for the worse."
I'm not of the belief that nothing contrary should be said about the recently deceased. It would be great if NPR's coverage of important figures who die featured honest assessments of their deeds - think Ford, Reagan, Oral Roberts, William F. Buckley, etc. If a person of renown dies, why not mention their accomplishments and their failings. If Howard Zinn were a historian who was inaccurate and dishonest or plagiarized that would be important. Of course, since there is nothing erroneous or false in the histories that Zinn wrote, NPR has to use character assassination to smear his reputation - and that is frankly inexcusable.
Fortunately, FAIR noticed this hatchet job by NPR and launched an action alert, and NPR obviously has heard from many disgusted listeners - judging from its Thursday ATC letters segment.
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Thanks, mytwords, for listening to NPR...
... so we don't have to.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
I think it's pretty gutsy to
I think it's pretty gutsy to call Milton Friedman "one of the vilest figures of the right." I would highly recommend you checking out some videos of his on Youtube.
There's a difference between people who claim to be implementing his ideas and Friedman himself.
That's true for all academics, by definition
The Chilean people might have different views of the Chicago School, and how its ideas were put into practice.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Schwarzenegger has your back on this
Naomi Klein has Mytword's:
"I would highly recommend you checking out some videos of [hers] on Youtube."
That said
Instead of "vile," maybe you two can agree that "malignant" is the fairer descriptive to use when characterizing Friedman.
Here's an interesting
Here's an interesting "debate" between Friedman and Klein: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVUFyEY3gmo
Is there a transcript?
Or maybe you can summarize. Absent some reason for "interest"....
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Trust me, CMike, I'm familiar
Trust me, CMike, I'm familiar with Naomi Klein's work. I'm not sure I can say the same thing of the majority of people who criticize Milton Friedman.
Here's an interesting thing Naomi Klein says in that quote:
This, of course, is right after she says that there are many people who have distorted Friedman's ideas, deliberately used them or pretended that they were using them when doing nothing of the sort, simply to further their own ends. So, it's not the ideas. Ideas themselves don't have an effect on the world. It's the people who "use" them.
I don't know about all this Chile stuff, but I think you can probably find about 1 million people who probably had a much larger role in that than Milton Friedman. He might have supported the free market over a socialistic market, but I don't think that's wrong, and I have a feeling that where it ended. I think you'll have a very hard time finding some place where he supported death squads or anything like that.
Milton Friedman supported a full reserve currency, something essential that you never hear about. He was against the police state. He was for legalization of drugs, prostitution, et al. I hardly think you could call this guy your typical "right winger."
"I don't know about all this Chile stuff..."
I'd consider reading further into Klein. That may also answer your implicit question of how ideas get propagated from the hallowed halls of academe and have real-life consequences, as of course they do.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Again with the names!
Hello!
That was only last week!
I'm not the moderator here, Lambert is, but since you thought I was taking it personally last time (and needed an adult to bail me out), that is why I bring it up again here, when you are doing the same thing to CMike.
Arguments, evidence, not personalities. If you can't make the argument without calling people out by name, you must not have a very good argument, or any evidence, yeah?
Sorry, I don't fall in love with politicians. I'm not that desperate.....
Dude, why don't you chill
Dude, why don't you chill out? I'm not "calling people out." I'm just typing in comments and occasionally a name comes up in there. ...It's not addressed to anyone, and it's not really going after anyone personally.
Hey Okanogen!
It's all good!
And I understand, you don't mean it wrong, but it sucks seeing your name called out like that, (if you see what I mean by the example) and it's unnecessary.
It's kind of also just part of the culture of this blog to not do it. That developed after over a year's worth of nastiness during "The Primariez".
Update: Har!
On a meta note, it would be good to be able to edit comments after somebody comments on them. At least some times.
Sorry, I don't fall in love with politicians. I'm not that desperate.....
See rule 7
here, Josh, as well as Okanagen, since -- snort -- two wrongs don't make a right.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Sorry!
Know I should chill out: trying to find my happy place......
>;-)
Sorry, I don't fall in love with politicians. I'm not that desperate.....
You "don't know about all this Chile stuff..."?
But I should "trust" you when you say you're familiar with Naomi Klein's work. All righty then.
Here's Paul Krugman:
Currency insight did you say? Margaret Thatcher bought into his one size fits all prescriptions in the 80s. Here's how that looked in 2003:
"The only responsibility of companies is to make a profit" and governments should deregulate and stand aside -- what could go wrong?
Hey, c'mon Mike, let's be fair
Wouldn't be better just to point to some YouTube and tell people to watch it? Kidding!
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Dude, I'm trying to show
Dude, I'm trying to show people what he actually said, not just what Paul Krugman (uch) or Naomi Klein said he said.
I mean, this stuff is ridiculous. Why doesn't everyone just watch his interviews, or his "Free to Choose" series, and see if they still think these accusations hold up?
Better yet, get dazzled by watching a "lively television debate"
Back in October of 2008 Toby Sanger wrote:
But he meant well -- that's the important thing.
[The debate is conducted in English beginning at 1 minute and 14 second mark following the opening remarks which were in, what I guess, is Icelandic.]
Milton Friedman's ideas
Milton Friedman's ideas inspired these young "conservatives?"
That's why Kaupthing was rife with fraud. Come on. It's absurd to blame Iceland's collapse on Milton Friedman. Nowhere does he say it's ok to steal, lie, etc. That was the exact opposite of what he talked about. ...He was for full currency reserve, so although I don't know this guy's work inside and out, I can only imagine he'd be against all this leverage that we saw in Iceland. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/aug/04/iceland-bank-kaupthing-internet-leak
Friedmanism has never failed
It's never been tried. Is that your final answer?
Here's Ben Bernanke ring kissing his way to the top:
Guess Bernanke must have lapsed back into a New Deal mindset shortly thereafter. How else would you explain our ending up back where we started?
Thanks for that link!
Thank you Cmike for that video link.
I especially like it when people are out of their comfort zone and when they let their guard down. That is where their true self shows. Some of the shit Friedman says "I don't know about Iceland", "your culture", "monolithic culture", were all very instructive. He continually says he "doesn't know about the example they state" in Iceland (though he is in Iceland and pretends at 68:10 to tell them false facts that he is shot down on), takeaway is his theories are not negated by any contrary evidence they provide. In other words, the theory is sound, the evidence is in error.
Is it not possible to admit the obvious? Milton Friedman was a con man. The con he was selling was his "intellect". I've met lots of smooth talkers in my life, and when I watch this video, I see a world-class bullshit artist at work. Very impressive, but proof that fine bullshit can be deadly.
Evidence, not linguistic (or otherwise) gymnastics: Friedman had none.
Sorry, I don't fall in love with politicians. I'm not that desperate.....
Well, I don't know 100% about
Well, I don't know 100% about Milton Friedman's ideas. Apparently, he was a monetarist, and I don't think that's the end all be all of economic theory. As you might be able to tell, you simply can't pump money (or pump money in the wrong way) into a situation and expect it to clear up magically.
As far as I know about Milton Friedman's other ideas, I can't think of any country that doesn't give major subsidies away to some groups, or favors one group over another in some way, so I'd say no. They haven't been tried.
Well I don't know 100% about
Well I don't know 100% about John Maynard Keynes' ideas. Apparently, he was a Keynesian.
That would make sense. Along those lines Wikipedia says:
It's not so much that I "might be able to tell, you simply can't pump money (or pump money in the wrong way) into a situation and expect it to clear up magically." Keynes explained when interest rates are zero bound expansionary monetary policy is like trying to push on a string.
Of course, that would leave fiscal policy, specifically deficit government spending, as the option for policy makers to employ to deal with depressions. But free-marketeers are wedded to the belief that government can do no right hence we needed Friedman's explanation that the Fed was to blame for the Great Depression. (See Paul Krugman's Peddling Prosperity)
You write:
Now we're getting somewhere. They haven't been tried because they'll never be tried past the Stage 1 phase of weakening the government of a society that is at all egalitarian. As the role of a government recedes in a society the influence of the moneyed class advances.
That's what people from the center to the left believe; be they New Deal/Great Society liberals, European democratic socialists, or dyed in the wool socialists.
That last link is to a YouTube clip. It runs for 5 minutes and 20 seconds and, therein, is a clearly stated refutation of Friedmanism.
Milton Friedman's ideas cannot fail
..... you know the rest.
But scroll forward to 28:00 (or 38:10) in that video for a revealing take on Friedman's view on how his theories are implemented!
Anyway, here is one more reason why searching for links is helpful. Sometimes you accidentally stumble on something that really resonates. Something you would never have read if you hadn't gone on a search for links.
Here is one, from (of course) Arthur Silber, that I found while searching his site for references to Friedman, Rand, etc..
Arthur, circa 2003:
One wonders if Friedman ever did that, the evidence I've seen is no, his own koolaid was working hard.* Plus, isn't that a wonderful goal or methodology to work with here?
Anyway. So, how about that Howard Zinn?
*and having worked and dealt with people in a professional setting who, although clearly very educated and fluent, use English as their second language, I would describe this as a playfield clearly slanted towards a seasoned argumentalist like Friedman. I recognize some very clear instances of using techniques of "overwhelming with goobledygook" (though he sometimes gets slapped down ex. 37:00ish). Like most "public" academics, he was a master at linquistic argument, if not substance (see the Chile subject at 38:10).
Sorry, I don't fall in love with politicians. I'm not that desperate.....
Whoops
I missed reading this comment before I posted something similar above.
No whoops needed!
We is just riffin' on the same melody. Friedmanism can't fail, it can only be failed. Plus, you always bring good quotes/links to the fray so I bow.
Sorry, I don't fall in love with politicians. I'm not that desperate.....
Damn, I left out the link for that second extended passage
Here's how that looked in 2003:
A Friedman Firestorm!
Zoinks! I had no idea. Well, dang I'll just let the man speak for himself and you decide whether it's vile or no. Heeeerrrrrrreeeessss Milton [regarding Chile]
"...the Chilean episode, when Allende was thrown out in Chile, and a new government came in that was headed by Pinochet. At that time, for an accidental reason, the only economists in Chile who were not tainted with the connection to Allende were a group that had been trained at the University of Chicago, who got to be known as the Chicago Boys. And at one stage I went down to Chile and spent five days there with another group -- there were three or four of us from Chicago -- giving a series of lectures on the Chilean problem, particularly the problem of inflation and how they should proceed to do something about it. The communists were determined to overthrow Pinochet. It was very important to them, because Allende's regime, they thought, was going to bring a communist state in through regular political channels, not by revolution. And here, Pinochet overthrew that. They were determined to discredit Pinochet. As a result, they were going to discredit anybody who had anything to do with him. And in that connection, I was subject to abuse."
AND
"Here [Pinochet dictatorship] was the first case in which you had a movement toward communism that was replaced by a movement toward free markets. See, the really extraordinary thing about the Chilean case was that a military government followed the opposite of military policies. The military is distinguished from the ordinary economy by the fact that it's a top-down organization...whereas a market is a bottom-up organization. The customer goes into the store and tells the retailer what he wants; the retailer sends it back up the line to the manufacturer and so on. So the basic organizational principles in the military are almost the opposite of the basic organizational principles of a free market and a free society. And the really remarkable thing about Chile is that the military adopted the free-market arrangements instead of the military arrangements."
Thanks Milt
Matthew Murrey
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