PB2.0 - Why Social Justice Matters

As promised, here are my initial reflections (or intellectual masturbation, as PLuk would say... works for me too!) on the conception of social justice that I think PB2.0 should promote and apply to whatever structure it ends up having.

A quick response to Paul on the intellectual masturbation:

"In 'why I write', George Orwell claimed that all writers were motivated by some mixture of four motives. The first was 'sheer egoism', which must to some be present if (as Orwell assumed) a 'writer' is not someone who is not content to write but wants to publish. The second was 'aesthetic enthusiasm', which Orwell took to be some concern for the form of one's work. The third was 'historical impulse', or, more broadly, 'the desire to see things as they are.' The last was 'political purpose' -- using the word "political" in the widest possible sense. Desire to push the world in a certain direction, to alter people's idea of the kind of society they should strive after."

That's a quote from Brian Barry's book, Why Social Justice Matters, which inspired some (but not all) of the reflections below.

Again, my thanks to Lambert for offering me this opportunity.

I am one of the people who thinks that PB2.0 should be both about substance and structure. Both topics deserve posts of their own but in this post, I focus more on substance: a basic conceptualization of social justice.

What should PB2.0 stand for ?

I think, in the past two weeks, in the previous PB2.0 posts, we have spent a lot of time discussing what went wrong with Pb1.0 and how we got where we are. I do not wish to revisit these issues as I think the different aspects have already been explored pretty thoroughly and continue to be on a daily basis at Corrente. My personal diagnosis is that the Progressive Blogosphere has been fractured irremediably by the primary and there is no turning back. Those of us trying to lay the foundations for PB2.0 have to decide what we want, what we stand for, and how we want to relate to PB1.0.

This is my -- as mentioned social-democratic / sociological / European / French -- perspective on "what now?" I have already mentioned that social justice is a central concern and major organizing principle of my life. After all, my demographics should have put me squarely in Obama's camp: yes, I'm a woman, but I am a Ph.D holder, an academic, not even 40 yet. But here's the kicker: I come from a very low social class background and I only moved up the social ladder because I grew up in a country that offers such opportunities: college is free in France, all the way to the Ph.D level. I received educational and housing benefits. I never had to worry about health care and I finished my education without a dime of debt... because some people, over time, made political decisions to promote social justice.

So, seeing inspirational vapidity replace clear progressive policy agenda did not sit well with me. The dismissal of women and working class folks as non-entity at best, idiotic nuisances at worst. Personal narratives, the focus on individual stories of choices and responsibilities are all parts of conservative / right-wing frameworks that deny the social constraints that shape our lives (whether we want to admit it or not) and obscure the omnipresence and weight of social privileges and disadvantages.

It is my view that PB2.0 should make visible such social privileges and disadvantages and promote corrective policies to offset the devastating effects of the latter. I would argue that, in denying the reality of such constraints (by deriding gender and social class considerations), PB1.0 engaged in what sociologist Pierre Bourdieu called symbolic violence. More on that below.

But let me first be more specific with what I mean with social justice. The way I see it, justice can be quality of individuals. Social justice refers to the institutions of society and the idea that we should challenge said institutions when they fail to deliver a just society (when talking about culture, that might mean "shoving the Overton window left"). And yes, social justice has a strong connection to social-democratic redistribution and Rooseveltian (FDR) ideas. As John Rawls puts it, the subject of justice is "the basic structure of society."

My view is that indeed, PB2.0 should fight against what we call social closure , that is, the freezing of the social ladder, and the increasing gap between the haves-a-lot and the rest of the population. I have several individual posts backed up on this topic, so, I won't develop here. But my general point here is that by endorsing Obama, PB1.0 endorsed a liberalist elite conception of justice where the bread-and-butter (AKA "ramen issues) issues are not as important for a cohort of people (the OFB, as we call them) is relatively economically and materially secure. Hence the derision towards Lambert's ramen post and HRC's windfall gas tax. Incidentally, I would consider reproductive rights a bread-and-butter issue as well.

To be even more precise, social justice concerns itself with rights, opportunities and resources and treats social institutions as means to get things done. I would argue that libertarianism focuses almost exclusively on rights at the expenses of the other two (see the health care issue).

Rights , here, are defined as "not being prohibited from having or doing something." Ok, so, you may have a right to healthcare but if you don't have the money for it, what good is that right to you? Same for education. No one is legally prohibited from pursuing an education. We all know things get complicated... hence, we need to consider as well...

Opportunities, that is, the capacity to obtain what I am not prohibited, by right, from pursuing. A disabled person may not be prohibited from going to the movies but if theaters do not provide ramps and other accommodations, that right means zilch. Women may have a right to abortion but if there are no providers within hundreds of miles, then, that right is insignificant. Disability accommodations (or planned parenthood clinics) provide the opportunities to exercise a right.

Resources are the external factors that improve our chances of exercising our rights, given the opportunity to do so. Bourdieu would refer to this as the different forms of capital that our birthplace / birth position on the social ladder endow us with:

  • Economic capital: $$
  • Social capita: connections, networks of relationships
  • Cultural capital: educational credentials
  • Symbolic capital: prestige derived from mastery of high-class cultural habits / demeanor / speech patterns / manners

We are all more or less endowed with certain amounts of each. They are the resources we possess but mostly did not earn that constitute our packages of social privileges and disadvantages.

The goal of social justice is to make sure that we do not stop analysis at the level of rights (which libertarians tend to do, especially when it comes to property rights), especially that the analysis does not focus narrowly on "liberal" rights (speech, religion, property) but also includes socio-economic rights. Any political work towards social justice must promote redistribution of opportunities and resources (that's what UHC and single-payer systems are about and you'll notice that's what we've been told is politically unrealistic).

A society that is highly unequal, as the American society is, compared to other rich societies, is a structurally violent society. It is the violence experienced as denial of health care, of being unable to find a solution the equation of low wage, high gas prices, high child care costs, high educational costs, absence of decent public transportation and then to be blamed for being unable to find a individual resolution to what are structural issues... hence the hectoring of black fathers for their supposed irresponsibility without considering that art equal income level, black fathers are no more irresponsible (even the term is questionable) than white fathers.

PB1.0 revealed during the primary its relative indifference to structural violence and engaged itself in symbolic violence through insults, demeaning writing / posting and a general exhortation for "some people" (women, older people, low classes) and a general dismissal of their issues as less important the goal they had defined as significant. These categories of people were basically told to keep their place and "trust the Man." Or else.

Now, to be sure, you can find outstanding social class analysis on the blogs, Ian Welsh comes to mind. But the narrow focus on electoral politics pretty much guarantees that social justice issues, because they are issues of the underprivileged, are always brushed aside as not relevant to the goal at hand (getting more "Ds" elected... never mind that some might be DINOs). The goal of electoral politics is to gain access to the structures of social power. Ideally, the next step would be to use the political institutions to promote social redistribution (of rights, opportunities and resources), but somehow, that does not happen. Social justice gets brushed aside again, whatever rationalization du jour is used.

Which is why the next step for PB2.0 would be to promote its own progressive economics plan: I can't remember in which thread I suggested that we might want to consider things like micro-lending (Kiva does that in the Global South, Southshore bank does that as well, in the US) or other forms social businesses.

I think that there are things that PB1.0 does well so, we should devote our energy to other causes, that might be one. PB1.0 is good at electoral mobilization (even the results suck, the process seems to work... ActBlue), FDL excels at governmental analysis (these threads on congressional hearings are great). But again, this is Village politics. But frankly, these modes of action have shown their limits.

So, let me summarize:

  • Promotion of intellectual tools that do not reproduce conservative / libertarian / media-favored frames by bringing back the social (as opposed to the individual / judgmental frameworks)
  • Promotion of redistribution of rights, opportunities and resources
  • Promotion of the ways in which current institutions can be reformed to create a more just society (again, where rights, opportunities and resources are more equally redistributed... we may be equal in terms of rights under the law, but in the absence of equal opportunities and resources, it's meaningless) here and globally (World Bank, IMF, WTO)

Our goal: a more just society here and globally. Reducing /eliminating structural violence. Avoid symbolic violence (the lowest form of which is the use of demeaning nicknames).

The challenge is to find the structure to promote this far and wide.

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A few random remarks

On the limitations of justice, Anatole France:

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. That is one of the good effects of the Revolution.

OTOH, it could be said that social closure has reached such an extreme that social justice is justice tout court. I think of the Psalms, where over and over the singer laments not that a decision went against them, but that they couldn't even get a hearing. Rhetorically, social justice sounds like a subset of justice, even though, in this point, analytically, the reverse is true.

Terminological note: The OFB are Obama supporters who've drunk the Kool-Aid; their fan-like adherence to their candidate is so extreme that they can be modelled as trolls; possibly even paid trolls. They don't have problems with the "ramen" posts, so long as they posts don't say anything about their over-valued object, Obama; it's the "creative class" of knowledge workers and symbol makers who have the problem.

Nicknames: Can we not invent nicknames for our enemies? And what about invective? I'd hate to have to do without the Unity Pony, for example; and OFB wasn't invented on the spur of the moment to insult; it emerged as a result of actually behavior that needed to be named.

Great post that ties a lot together. I see now why you say PB 1.0 is broken -- if indeed it ever existed.

UPDATE I did some very light copy editing.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

...if it ever existed...

and if, as I think, it never existed, then a lot of folks fooled themselves about one thing or another. What makes you think that can't happen again, or isn't. And if PB 1 never existed, what makes you think PB 2 can?

I'm in the camp that says the intertubes are just a toolkit, like the phone networks or the printed word used to be --- a communications space, another commons that it's their job to try to take from us and our job to defend, and extend.

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

There is no "us" without...

... a network through which "we" communicate. You can call that network a toolkit if you want, but it is in the same way that your larynx is a toolkit.

I don't think anybody is saying what happened to PB 1.0, or how PB 2.0 can be created -- I assume you think it should be -- is a technical problem.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

A bit cynical, aren't you, Bruce?

Is that it then?

Defending the Toobz? It's a tool indeed. We might as well try to use to advance what we really want. I'm not naive but I'd rather try before throwing the towel.

by all means try, I'm in there for tthat

I don't think I am cynical. That's kind of like accusing folks who don't believe in the same god the same way you do of being an atheist. (which I am, but that's a different conversation.) Cynicism, the way I learned it, is the belief that all good efforts and intentions lead to bad ends, no matter what. So I ain't no cynic. No sir. I mean, no ma'am.

I ain't for throwin' in no towels. I'm all for trying, for struggling over what we can really do with these tools. I am just wary (and weary too) of folks investing properties in the tools that don't exist, or that are inherent in US not in the tools.

Does that make any sense?

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Yes, that makes sense

Struggle is where the fun is, though! From atheist to another. :-)

Again I ask, Bruce

Who is investing properties in the tools that don't exist? Am I? Is FrenchDoc? Who?

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

I'm not!

Besides, I don't see the PB2.0 issues as technical but really social (networking) and political. Again, substance and structure (not in a technical sense but in the sense of how do we organize ourselves).

How we organize ourselves

OK, now we're talking. It's about how we organize ourselves. But organizing cannot just take place over the tubes. This is not Second Life, it's Life Itself.

The answers are not going to come from or over the tubes, because the organizing that really drives change will not itself be led from there. It has to come from stuff we do with the people we get face to face with, and in stuff we do with the access we get, or struggle to get, to local broadcast media, to make a self-serving kind of point.

The real questions are where are the political pressure points at this point in time that can be organized around and what are the most appropriate and useful forms of organization, and after these are answered, what we can do with it over the intertubes.

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Yeppers

+100. What this post is about, I would say, is developing a framework to identify classes of pressure point.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

organizing over the tubez

except that the obama campaign has made productive use of the internet for organizing and especially for raising money.

also, i've been more politically active in real life this year than in recent years, in large part because of answers/suggestions/questions/organizations/exhortations that i encountered first in cyberspace.

I agree

I think it is a powerful organizing / info-sharing / info-digging tool. It can really deepen your offline experience... I don't think I would have that invested in the primary w/o all the internet activity, the good, the bad and the ugly.

the idea that PB2 can have a "structure"

which you can find near the beginning of FrenchDoc's original post on this page is, I think, an example of this. Maybe I lost too many brain cells in the 70s or something, but I find it hard to imagine a PB2 "structure".

Help me out on that if you can. I mean marketing efforts and campaigns have structure. Electoral efforts have structure. But PB 2? PB 1, even. What "structure" was that?

Looked to me just like another uneven playing field.

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Let me turn it around?

Did PB 1.0 have a structure?

My answer: Very clearly. A classic Internet power curve, with a very few sites at the top of the curve getting most of the traffic (a classic example of a network), a few thousand sites, like us, clinging to the shoulder of the power curve, and then a "long tail" of blogs with tiny readerships -- millions of 'em.

How'd that structure work out for us? (You might also look here. Although these discussions are expressed in technical terms they are, precisely, about access to resources and opportunities.)

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

How we relate to each other

that's basically what I mean by structure.

In the previous PB2.0, we discussed how the smears and falsehoods and truthiness spread so fast, easily and powerfully. A "structure" like DK, that is, a gigantic hub, we think, facilitated such contagion without any mechanisms to stop it (and, as Lambert has written about before, with the active complicity of sysadmin).

The issue for PB2.0 is then how do we relate to each other? How do we exercise some critical thinking over the stuff we write on a variety of topic. Maybe the centralism of the hub structure is part of the problem with PB1.0, well then, we need a different structure: a network of blogs without central point? A central blog that simply lists the PB2.0 posts of the day so that a reader can easily find them and go read them? (I'm just brainstorming with myself here)

And if we agree that the focus electoral politics is a mistake, how do we promote the causes we want, across the PB2.0 network?

This means, we might have to develop a list of criteria of what a PB2.0 blog should have to claim the label.

Does that make more sense?

central hubs, ad blogulation

very useful to have one central place to go to for information, and i like very much the idea of having one or a few central aggregators that link many smaller blogs.

i also like having one central place to go to for discussion with a variety people, like here at corrente, but mostly i avoid group blogs precisely because of the mob behavior.

i'm not sure, but i think the troll rating and trusted user functions greatly exacerbated the mob-psychology aspects of dkos. if you're going to go with the 'wisdom of crowds' thingy [and it'll never be a replacement for real editors and moderators imnsho], then allow only one option -- recommend this post/comment. additionally, there should be a separate way to report especially greivous behavior to a moderator, or patently untrue material to an editor.

the focus on electoral politics isn't/wasn't a mistake; blogs are a good replacement for what caucuses are alleged to be good for [ack! the grammar!], and they've certainly been one of the few [tiny] sources of media critique, and getting more people involved in the political process is a net positive.

plus, i came here for the electoral politics, which means that now y'all have me as a captive audience for wherever you want to go with pb2.0.

Liar!! You're sticking around for the menage a whatever number

:-)

TalkLeft is a good example of the need for editor oversight. I think one of the reasons TL remained sane, albeit very pro-HRC, is that Jeralyn exercises strong control over what gets posted and she has clear rules and does not hesitate to zap people's accounts if they misbehave.

I think we could have a one-site/aggregator type that would collect different posts on similar topics (environment, economy, etc.) and you could have then discussion in one place but relating to different posts on a similar topic.

well... if that's the direction pb2.0 is going....

far be it from me to complain about my captivity.

On nicknames

OFB or Unity Pony are not nicknames. They are reality-based and encapsulate in a short form a phenomenon that has to do with a demonstrable reality.

I don't like nicknames that are just demeaning with no meaning "Shrillary" or "Obambi". I hated it when PLuk started calling VL "Britney" when VL endorsed Obama even though I agreed with Paul on the substance. I just think we should be careful. Like the New Yorker cover, it's a fine line to walk.

An interview with my conscience on nicknames

FrenchDoc, my ideal would be a fuzzy line of judgment somewhere between yours and Lambert's. The little conscience fairy on my shoulder seems to have a surprisingly clear line where she enjoys some mocking nicknames, but cringes at others. It's only partially correlated with my regard for the person.

I asked my fairy what the deal was, and she says it's a complex of subconscious factors involving the degree of respect she thinks is owed the subject AND the degree of respect owed ADMIRERS of the subject. I think frequency is a factor. A heavily used nickname starts to seem relentlessly boring, uncreative and juvenile ("McSame"). I completely agree with your examples, FrenchDoc. My fairy, however, would mourn the loss of "Tweety" -- I guess because it passes all the above criteria.

Power is the dealbreaker for me

Irony, satire and nicknaming (if reality-based) can be weapons of the powerless against the powerful.

When nicknaming is simply used to demean and dismiss by the powerful against a less powerful person / group, that's where I have problems.

Yes, that's the main thing

Agreed, now that you mention it, with my criteria secondary.

note...

"Britney" was not about VL's endorsement of Obama, rather about his illegitimate claim to being a PUMA. It wasn't about VL being a "Britney" -- rather it was about his not being a PUMA any more than he was "Britney Spears".

In other words, I called VL "Britney" to designate something he wasn't.

And, IMHO, that's not namecalling.

I stand corrected

You're right on the context, of course.

That's too fucking complicated for my simple brain

So if I call you, Paul, He of Colorless Green Ideas, that would be meaningful because you actually have ideas?

This is like a joke that has to be explained; not a good joke!

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Just think of me....

as The New Yorker, and yourself as some Joe-Bob, and everything will be okay... ;)

habitat of lies

Years ago I read Jody Powell's book The Other Side of the Story and he talked about how reporters used anonymous sources to just make stuff up. He said it was like a clerk taking money out of a registered, just too tempting. Since then I have avoided reporters who use anonymous sources, even Seymor Hersh.

The smears of the primary were all driven by anonymous sources. So one of the things we need to do is call reporters and bloggers on anonymous sources. Don't link to stories that use anonymous sources, especially if they are telling us what we want to hear. Anonymous sources are the habitat of lies. It is still possible to lie without anonymous sources, but it is harder.

Electoral politics

Is about one thing and one thing only: winning elections. That's it. We can fool ourselves into thinking its the savior, but its not. I'm a partisan and have helped organize campaigning schools for groups. For a variety of reasons, I'm a Dem. (In the 1850s, I'd have been a Whig.) Parties come and go and their philosophies change but the goal is always the same: win elections.

P2.0 should avoid partisan electoral politics as much as possible. Hell, a poor child living in a south side Chicago slum with no heat in the winter should be a concern to both Dems and GOPers.

I hope it came across clearly in the post

that I completely agree with you on this.

"Party invariant" is gq's term, I think

Now, let me say, purely from the standpoint of a blogging practitioner: Blogging isn't all about the hits, but it is about the hits. It makes to sense to speak the truth but only in a whisper. People have to hear, or, in our case, read.

That's the advantage of electoral politics from the post, post, post perspective: There's ready made subject matter of some, at least, importance, and it comes on a daily basis. Now, we don't adopt that subject matter -- to the extent that we don't adopt right wing tropes, that is -- but even if we don't adopt it, we can do a critique.

No matter how the substance changes, we're still going to have to get read. And I guess that means developing orginal narratives, instead of the critique. A lot of hard work, there.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Multiple layers

like an onion. One layer for visibility (including electoral politics), but at least one other layer without the constraints of partisan support. (Single payer is a good example. Some Hillary supporters will support the two-tiered approach simply because she did--I do for the "practical" reason, but also a more fundamental philosophical, I-told-you-so reason.) Partisanship inevitably softens the issue position if the candidate isn't 100% on our side.

I'd like to see a layer with some hardcore wonkery. One thing 6+ years of graduate school taught me is that there are people that know a hell of a lot more than me about so many things and this shouldn't be seen as a threat to me, but a tool to push my research: just ask them questions. But I have to trust the people.

I think one of the reasons I avoided Kos is because, as mentioned below, nonexperts acted like experts with credibility and I never trusted them. I want to see links to academic papers and rigorous summaries of the data, not just a NYT summary or some ignorant person repeating talking points they heard from someone else.

Oh, the Overton window

It's not cultural. It's definitely political, and to shove it left, you've got to address all the issues of rights, opporunities, and resources. See HCAN't vs. single payer for an obvious contemporary example.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

site traffic

I have taken to checking site statistics and technorati links

the posts about Obama and the election gets lots of links and inbound traffic, the posts about single payer are ignored. Now, as the health debate takes off next year I hope that will change. But it is what it is.

We noticed that too at our site

Obama stories get a lot of traffic, some Africa stories, but lots of other stuff gets far less. But the referring traffic is chiefly driven by the themes of the MSM coverage.

So to make the real difference, to get the mass audience is a real challenge.

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

Bruce Dixon
www.blackagendareport.com

The numbers

1. A year ago, when Corrente's traffic was dependent on A list links, instead of growing organically, the single payer numbers would have been fine. Any subject matter takes time to find an audience. Gardening, for example, is doing much better than it used to, and, I am convinced, brings a real contributors, as opposed to just readers. Our task is to connect to those people.

2. The single payer posts are informational, but to get real numbers, you need a narrative. For example, Why does Barack Obama want my friend to keep bleeding into her shoes is a UHC post, but also includes the electoral narrative and a PB 1.0 narrative about A listers being in the tank. It has 3300 hits, two orders of magnitude better than the typical single payer post. Part of that -- lambert blushes modestly -- is me, but that's not all of it.

3. I agree that our substance needs to be party invariant, but that doesn't mean that our content must be. If leveraging the electoral narrative gets us what we need, then let's use it. For example, in this post, FrenchDoc also does a fine job of media critique on the A list -- within a larger frame.

4. And I always harp on this, but for those who haven't heard it before, I'll say it again: The headline is absolutely critical. It's what gets the reader's attention on the main page, it's what shows up in Google, it's what the URL is made from, and most important of all, it's what shows up in people's RSS readers. Plus it flags the narrative. Assume two hypothetical posts with identical content: Which do you think will get more coverage: "Single payer bill fails to advance in House" or "Steny Hoyer shits the bed on HR 676"? Eh? There is absolutely no substitute for polished writing in every aspect of a post.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

"issues"

issues are essentially boring -- at least until they become the topic, at which point everyone becomes an expert (or at least enough of one to have an opinion).

What FD does is an essential part of the 'progressive' blogosphere (regardless of version) -- not because he does daily posts, but because he pays enough attention to the issue that he is a highly credible source of information on it --- if I read something from French Doc on health care issues, I know that I'm reading something by someone who knows what he's talking about.

One of the problems with PB 1.0 is that getting a 'reputation' in one area seems to convey credibility in all areas -- and while Glenn Greenwald is reliable on issues like FISA and 'torture', IMHO he's full of crap on the question of the larger political environment...nevertheless, Greenwald opinions on just about every subject have become 'respected' because of his espertise in a few rather narrowly defined areas.

From what I've seen MOST of the progressive blogosphere suffers from the same basic flaw -- people who know their shit on a hot topic become 'famous', and depending on how badly they want to become an 'A-lister', wind up becoming 'respected' opinionators on a whole host of subjects....in very large part because of the 'social' organization of the blogosphere, and the fact that we're all pretty much a bunch of sheep.

********
and geez, I've avoided taking part in the whole PB 2.0 discussions because I think its intellectual masturbation, rather than productive discussion, and only labelled it as such as an aside in a thread that was NOT a PB 2.0 discussion. Suddenly, this label becomes worthy of a quote from Orwell?

you take my opinions far too seriously... ;)

Masturbation isn't sacred? Why?

Oh, wait. That's the Obama thread. Sorry.

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Masturbation is healthy!

Trust me, I'm French and therefore an automatic expert on all matters sexual!

Masturbation <b>IS</b> sacred....

but, as with all objects of religious veneration, completely unproductive.

This Frenchdoc is a lady, Paul

I'm glad you are participating in the discussion, albeit tepidly (sorry, sorry, I couldn't resist!)

oops...

This Frenchdoc is a lady, Paul

gawd, I hate it when this happens.

(at least it wasn't in the Melissa McEwan thread).

If its any solace, I think I see 'ungendered' Obama supporters as inevitably male (and 'ungendered' Clinton supporters as female...I thought VL was a woman for the longest time!) Kind of like how I see cats as female, and dogs as male, until I know their gender....

You're not the first one to assume

that a gender neutral pseudo = male.

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out the genders of half the commenters around here!

If there's anything I'm really proud of at Corrente

it's that. I'm very proud of attracting a lot of strong writers with individual voices. I'm even prouder that the voices are strong in themselves without regard to gender. (And I saw this as a very white, very male WASP.)

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

It is because you demand (in your own soft way)

a certain level of writing / reasoning / evidence from all of us. It's probably intensive and demanding on you but I hope it works out the way you want it to.

I think this is also why there hasn't been too much trolling around here.

Why do I still have an account then?

I do enjoy the writing here and that almost every post has some analysis. One reason I never went to Atrios much was his "Wanker of the Day" posts that only contained the word "Wanker" and a link. Sometimes I couldn't tell who was the wanker or if the link was just to the wrong place.

automatic expert on everything -- bingo

seems to be true-ish of anyone who amasses a large enough audience. this is why i'd like to see more emphasis on human editors in pb2.0, and less use of electronic tools.

pundits who become automatic experts on everything, by virtue of their popularity, has certainly been one of the [many] problems with the m$m.

Editors!

That is a profound point, Hipparchia.

(In our media critique, we so often focus on the writers. But in fact, the editors are the real enemies: They assign the stories, determine placement, write the headlines, hire and fire. And above them, of course, the owners. It's clean, earthy sport to skewer Ron Fournier, and necessary, but not as important as skewering... Who does own AP?

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

owners too, are important,

since they hire/fire the editors.

also, you should be proud, justly so, of the voices you've brought here. it's an extraordinary group, and one for which i thank you.

dirty fucking hippie!

like that one, you mean? ;)

i see it's already been said, but i'll pile on: i'm with saint molly on satire, and would include the use of offensive, demeaning nicknames as an additional weapon.

also, while i'm annoyed at paul's choice of britney spears, i reserve the right to hurl epithets at my opponents in an argument, if the situation seems to call for it.

all rhetorical weapons should be used judiciously, but they should pretty much all be allowed, even the offensive ones.

The invention of symbolic violence

Hipparchia writes:

All rhetorical weapons should be used judiciously, but they should pretty much all be allowed, even the offensive ones

What's allowed is one thing, what's effective is another.

There's no point, IMSHO, in offense for the sake of being offensive. One of Corrente's missions, for a long time, has been the development of invective, and the key thing about invective is that it propagates successfully; it's so on point, and so vivid, and so easy to use that others pick it up. VastLeft and I (or I and VastLeft, I'm not sure of the order) propagated both Unity Pony and OFB, and now they're everywhere (and, as FrenchDoc says, they're reality-based). Some find them offensive, but that's in fact a measure of their power.

So, again, the writing is everything; if you're going to invest the time in insulting someone, for pity's sake try to get a return on your investment; and that only comes if your writing is good enough that other people copy it. (Which, incidentally, is why Paul's "Britney" abuse fails; though it was offensive, nobody could see the point, which is why Paul finally had to explain it. Alas, therefore, it discredited every comment in which it appeared, which is why I am happy to see the old, analytical Paul returning to us on this thread. No offense ;-)

[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

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