Jane writes in comments:
The key word here is "dwell"
Google says there are 2,200 posts on FDL on "Obama" and "FISA" and I think you'll find them plenty critical:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clien...
We tried to focus on being substantive and let others do the daily descent into name-calling. I understand reading FDL at the time probably wasn't satisfying for those who liked to roll around in pie, but I feel comfortable that we can look back in five years and feel like we were fair.
I think there will be others who won't have that luxury.
As I wasn't in the daily habit of reading FDL at the time, I can't vouch for how your site handled the primary in posts and comments.
I can vouch that — once Edwards dropped out — the left blogosphere, generally, became an incredibly hostile place for those who dared suggest that the last remaining Democratic alternative to Barack Obama be given due consideration, and for those who dared criticize anything whatsoever about the then-Senator from Illinois.
The quote of yours that I cited would seem to vouch for same.
Even David Sirota, who has (recently) told folks who had a relatively positive word for Hillary Clinton to "slither back to your rathole of bitterness" and "STFU
," observed the big chill faced by heretics who dared question Obama:
...whenever questions [about Obama] are raised - no matter how gently or how substantive - the person raising it is attacked as a "concern troll," a "whiner," a purist martyr on a crucifix, a self-important attention freak who thinks he/she is a hero, a horrifically disloyal traitor or a "liar" (the last of which is most appalling, since those making the accusations may disagree on opinion, but rarely actually offer up where the questioners are factually inaccurate).
"Rolling around in pie" and "name-calling" are not my profession (not that I rule out a blunt characterization when the shoe fits). Based on what do you call me a pie-fighter and a name-caller? Because it wasn't worth fighting to have an honest discourse re: the election of a president to roll back the Bush disaster and the Reagan Revolution?
The example you offer of FDL's primary coverage -- criticism of Obama's epic cave-in on FISA -- occurred after the primaries, after he failed to be vetted, by acclamation among progressive intellectuals, activists, and first-time voters.
Truly, I have an infinitely higher opinion of you, FDL, and your collective contribution to honest information and analysis than the likes of Gwen Ifill (the work y'all did on Plamegate is rightfully the stuff of blog legend), but this can't help but remind me of Gwen's excuse for the MSM's checking its critical faculties in the run-up to the Iraq War, i.e., that its reportage of the ensuing damage was meritorious.
You yourself acknowledge two of the essential points behind my kind of "pie fighting," so it's not clear how I earn your condemnation, the implication that I should be ashamed of my writings about the primary:
1. Obama rode to the presidency with the support of many voters who were under the blissful misapprehension that he was a dyed-in-the-wool progressive
2. The prevailing culture made it socially costly to raise such issues
Those two points, which acknowledge the period's willful delusions and oppressive groupthink — along with much of the left embracing Clinton Derangement Syndrome and turning a deaf ear toward misogyny and false charges of racism — with the ultimate cost being a failure to make the Democratic finalists earn their progressive bona fides, pretty much cover the reasons for my blasphemous primary blogging.
For all I know, FDL did some stellar reporting about the meltdown of progressive critical thinking and the one-candidate-fits-all-or-else discourse this past year. If so, that would be a thing of pride, when looking back on a Democratic primary where truthiness and STFU
reigned supreme.
Dismissing those who did as "name callers" and "pie fighters" would seem to do little to ensure that the new media is much better than the old.
Please note that none of this has to do with some dead-ender obsession with Hillary Clinton. I fully appreciate that we are all Scalia now.
As you stated, the key word is "dwell." What happens in American politics has a massive impact on the world and country in which we dwell.
Given the abject dereliction of our mainstream media, the blogosphere offers a precious opportunity to influence that politics in a constructive way.
If our new media can't rise above high schoolish status games (the Kewl Kidz and bullies like Obama, so STFU
), that precious opportunity goes squandered.
I thought — and shamelessly continue to think — that a better politics and a square-house blogosphere are worth fighting for. Even if that fight sometimes tastes, to some, like rhubarb.
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link does not work
it goes to an edit page, and denies access, so which comment?
Link fixed, thx! n/t
.
AFAIC,
it was the commenters who caused the most damage and hard feelings on many of the lefty blogs. However, the bullying and name-calling was allowed because as one person always said, he didn't want to have to babysit. Blog owners made their positions pretty clear, however, when they started to ban people who weren't on board with Obama. They didn't want a dialogue, and in their effort to present a positive front, they surely didn't win anyone over - they just heightened the acrimony.
Don't know about FDL, but they certainly weren't the worst offenders. We all know who they are.
Most lefty blogs...
did some combination of the following:
* Took a pass on publicly criticizing the groupthink, truthiness, and unfairness -- didn't post about it, didn't fight it in their own comments threads
* Catapulted, to some or other degree, CDS propaganda
* Fueled the Ponyism
Yep, and that still goes on
Maybe it is just like email.
On alternate days, I think the model is totally broken. I dunno.
No, FDL wasn't the worst offender at all. I don't read them much because I was neve able to get my head round the new interface, which is my problem, not theirs. One thing I know is that we need more Plame-like original content, and not less.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Agree
on both points. Don't like the format and haven't taken the time to get used to it. And their work on Plame was stellar. Too bad Scooter is the only one who got busted.
*looks pointedly at the Obama administration*
Oh, and please understand that you're not the intended target
in references to "pie-fighting."
Awkward, that.
Hee!
I must admit it's momentarily off-putting when I see that phrase used, but it was around long before I was. :)
Nice summation of the lefty blogs, too.
Yes, but "rolling around in pie"?
The mind reels, no?
No, TonyRz, not if you saw
up close and personal, the spectacular juvenility employed by the partisans.
Some of it happened here.
I quit reading blogs for about three weeks two different times during that stretch of stupidity.
The acrimoniousness remains, btw. It's just found new/shiny spigots to ooze through.
We can admit that we’re killers … but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! ~ Captain James T. Kirk, Stardate 3193.0
1 John 4:18
I couldn't stand it either.
To this day, I am down to Corrente, Joe Cannon and Alegre. I check in daily with Anglachel (though she has not posted in ages) and use the links on her page to Paul Krugman, Calculated Risk and Stirling Newbury (who also hasnt' posted in ages), I've begun reading DeLong again occasionally (slowly, painfully) and Glenn Greenwald daily. So, I go no nearer to PUMA than Alegre and no cloeser to ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) than Greenwald. I'll click any link you, Lambert, Vast Left or DC Blogger provide and will read that as well.
Other than that, I'm trying to keep my nose to the grindstone and do my work.
"Someone needs to point out that elephants produce infinitely more shit than donkeys." Brad Mays
"let others"
Who would those "others" be? Specificity. It's a good thing!
-----------------------------
I'm not such a bad guy once you get to know me.
You can go to the original and see the links
All I'm trying to do is gain assent to the principle, which seems to be controversial.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Not controversial at all, just self preservation for some
I unsubscribed from many blogs during the primaries (and after) for blatant misogyny and CDS. And then later, there were blogs that got dumped for too much PUMA. There was something that I could never define, but just didn't sit right.
Hell, I stopped reading here for a brief while - for neither of those reasons. I had too many disagreements with too many of the posts, but I couldn't clearly articulate my issues so I couldn't argue well, and that's not a good thing at Corrente. Maybe I was just too caught up in the moment, and it's just as well I kept my mouth shut. If I can't tell you my problem, why should you care?
FWIW, there are very few blogs that were deleted and then came back. I don't miss the others at all.
I think one can go a long way in a debate with...
intellectual honesty as your guide.
If one isn't thin-skinned and is willing to test and recalibrate one's assumptions, it can be a good learning experience to "mix it up" with smart people. Where it becomes a drag is if their motives and methods are destructive, as is with trolls and such.
More specificity of "others"
I was asking it of Hamsher actually. She uses the phrase twice in that comment, "others", unnamed but definitely accused. Usually when someone uses that construct they would include a disclaimer like: "others (but not this blog) were into pies and fighting with them and rolling around in pie, etc.". So is she meaning Corrente or not? If so, go ahead and have the guts to say it, but be ready to cash the check with an example or two.
-----------------------------
I'm not such a bad guy once you get to know me.
A Link to
FDL's Plamegate coverage and later Lieberman takedown attempt originally drew me to read their blog. I started to read less and less as they added more front pagers who, IMO, had a fair case of CDS. I finally dropped them altogether sometime last spring.
Now, I check in occasionally as a few of them seem to have regained some perspective on the gap between Obama the campaigner and Obama the Preznit.
Marcy Wheeler did stellar work on Plamegate and remains one of their best informed writers.
Pony references
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with VL re Clinton deadendery, which until very lately has been pretty alive and well. But then my interpretation of Clinton deadendery may be more broad than most---every Pony
reference is a reference to the primaries after all.
And so what?
Lessons learned is one thing; obsessive rumination is another; tendentious revisionism is yet another. People who learn from history aren't deadenders. In fact, our mockey of pony-ism was a massive called shot, as we now know.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Called shot
To beat my usual drum, a called shot implies you have a fairly detailed hypothesis about what could have happened differently. I've never seen this sketched out, and really can't imagine what it could be. When I see it sketched out, I'll at least be able to say that it isn't just a mask for ODS and Clinton deadendery.
Cue the accusation that I'm assigning you work*...
*Demonstrating the plausibility of the implied claim.
Feh
This is just silly.
When Babe Ruth called his shot*, he pointed up to the bleachers, then hit it out of the park. What would the "fairly detailed hypothesis" for things happening differently have been? Striking out? A grounder? Why on earth would that have been necessary?
As for your usual trollish demand for more work from me -- and I don't know how it's an "accusation" that's what you want, rather than the simple truth -- I suggest that you check out the series that both VL and and I run, where we apologize for being prematurely correct. You'll find a number of them there.
Fact is, Corrente got a lot right, in advance of most other blogs, and especially the Obama-centric ones. I don't know why you want to deny that history -- or not give credit to those who developed the analytical tools that did the job before others did. But do continue your obfuscation!
NOTE * The origin of the trope (though as WikiPedia says, the history may be more ambiguous than the trope).
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Mandos, you certainly are innocent of breaking Obamawin's Law
http://www.correntewire.com/obamawins_law
The opposite of "never again" is "again." Which is great for those who like that sort of thing.
Pony, ponies, magic unity pony( ies), aka MUPpets--From google
and recollections, the "pony" prize began with Holden Caulfield's predicitons that BushBoy's popularity would drop below 40% by a a date certain, then again would keep going down, etc., and Atrios made a bet about giving Holden a pony, which started the pony images, esp'ly My Little Pony
, whenever Bush's poll numbers went down.
Now, I don't recall when the pony became a symbol for other things.... Searching the archives turned up lots of examples. How far back do the archives go, btw? Any for the precursors of this version of CorrenteWire?
Did Atrios put the pony in the Big Shit Pile? Or someone else? Lambert make it the magical symbol of unity?
So many ponies, so many possible applications....
Unfortunately, I had to take the glossary down
to install the accelerator that just saved our bacon (we just had a 26,000-hit say on Eminem and Palin -- and now I understand why the focus ;-) -- and the hamsters didn't break a sweat. From the Google cache, the glossary definition:
VastLeft and I successfully propagated Unity
Pony
down in the trenches at Daily Kos, back in the day when teh post-partisan and unity was one of main reasons to elect Obama (as opposed to other, more "divisive" candidates). No doubt I was purged for that, among other reasons. Although intensely desired (by the OFB
, if one believes them) we pointed out at the time that such unity was extremely unlikely (besides being undesireable). Turns out we were right. As for magical but non-existent creatures, well.... That one in retrospect seems pretty obvious, too. Plus ca "change"..... So we stood strong for our views, which were in the distinct minority online, were vilified for it, and we turned out to be right. The Unity
didn't happen, and Obama's an ordinary pol. Big surprise? Not to us. If there's a better word for that than "called shot," I'd be happy to hear it. And if that's "Clinton deadendery" -- a category into which apparently even mentioning the primaries falls into, well, I've been told to STFU
before, and at this point I'm impervious.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
The original pony actually...
...comes from a blog called Examined Life by a lit critter couple in Singapore, John Holbo and Belle Waring (the latter I've met in person). Years ago (2004), Belle mocked a libertarian conference---the litcrittersphere was then closely connected to the academic econosphere---with an anecdote about her daughter. It was hilarious and spread throughout the blogosphere like wildfire, until it was adopted by Atrios and The Editors.
Belle Waring, by the way, is/was of the general political stratum of Matt Yglesias and Ezra Klein, and originally supported the Iraq War due to Liberal
Seriousness, though she later fully retracted by the position and declared that the DFHs
were right because they were smarter than everyone else.
Oh, and...
...John and Belle themselves picked up the meme from Calvin and Hobbes as she explains in the linked post.
Ah, those were the days
Now that I think of them. Not long before, Crooked Timber and the Volokh Conspiracy were the 800-pound gorillas of the blogosphere, and I could make a small splash by blogging at a tiny place like Points of Information. Whatever happened to our innocence?
Thanks for the link, Mandos.
Updates from the link give good summary in Belle Waring's words:
Well, it's a description of the original strip, but, hey...you get the idea.