Fri, 12/19/2008 - 3:24pm — vastleft
Obama's healing gesture of helping sanctimonious bigot Rick Warren build his oppressive and profitable brand jogged the recollection that Warren uttered the most depressing thing I can imagine:
All of the great questions of the 21st century will be religious questions.
As I wrote at the time: "Fuck
, another century down the drain."
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You mean questions like this?
"Sweet jumping jesus, are you out of your mind?"
I got jesus in there---that qualifies as religious.
I'd call that question...
...religulous. Religulous is to religion what truthiness is to truth. :)
But, we've always been at war with Eastasia...
Personally, I think...
Religion is to truth what truthiness is to reality.
Be happy VL
The questions couldbe ones like:
"Why is religion so fucking important?"
"Should we be killing people because of religion?"
"Does religion really belong in the public sphere?"
We can dream, right? :)
He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
- Sir William Drummond
The question could be:
What to hell happened to the "Progressive's" president elect, did HE Change? Well there is change we suspected, but not the 'Fooled'. Whatever....
Seems payback for the Warren decision could
....be coming up soon.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008...
this will not happen -- ever --
and the fact that it's being floated now is even more insulting.
mark my words -- impossible, and they have no intention of giving him that spot.
After all, amberglow
they have a gay marching band. What? Not sufficently mollified by that deeply serious and courageous decision? I never thought I'd live to see the day when alleged Democrats would resort to tokenism, It's so disgusting.
it's even worse than just tokenism --
he's actually treating us like the majority society treated blacks for many years. We should sing and dance for his pleasure and then go away.
I'll also add that Clinton rocked in terms of LGBT appointments and jobs in his administration -- from symbolic things like Ambassador to many many actual powerful policymaking positions.
so far Obama has only named one openly gay person -- and it's not in a policy job.
Prop. 8 Sponsors Seek to Nullify 18K Gay Marriages
Prop. 8 Sponsors Seek to Nullify 18K Gay Marriages -- and Ken Starr's the lead lawyer!
oh gee thanks
ken starr... now i have to go bleach my brain.
Rick Warren & the "Ex-Gay" Movement
-- which we know Obama's onboard with too -- given Donnie McClurken's prominent emcee role in that "faith" tour earlier.
Rick Warren & the "Ex-Gay" Movement --
There's no such thing as a 12 step program with..
.. an evangelical supplement. The slogan is ".... God as we understood God, and that means a Higher Power, which is up to each group member to determine for themselves; it could even be the group. That's totally antithetical to evangelical proselytization. These guys manage to pervert even AA and Al-Anon. It's grotesque.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
isn't AA based on some religious thing?
what is it? (is it?)
This whole Warren thing keeps reminding me of Haggard and all the others continually getting caught. He started -- but didn't finish -- some "program" of "cure" or something -- Rep. Foley too, i think. Warren's downfall can't happen soon enough for me.
Spirituality is not based on or equal to religion
and in any case what works comes first, not the wordagawd or anything like that. AA is pragmatic and egalitarian. It's the very reverse of religious, which is why that statement is such a perversion. I mean, can you imagine Rick Warren saying anything like: "Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our traditions"? He wouldn't be a celebrity of he did that.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
i didn't know--but
i've always heard that it was based on something Christian (and also that different programs are more popular with us non-Christians because of that)
this --
...
Those are indeed the origins
but it's pragmatic. The goal is to help alchoholics, not to convert. If the "higher power" is the group, for example, that's fine. If the most florid variety of God is what works, then fine too. And I do believe that nobody has the strength to overcome alone (and in Bush we've got a classic, classic example of a dry drunk....)
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
ahhh
i only know what i've read about it--and i only know people who have used other types of group programs -- never 12-step ones or based on them.
i'm surprised tho, that there is any "higher power" element at all, given the whole buddy(?) thing, and the group supporting each other in itself.
I know a couple of atheists who are very happy with AA
They say they've never been hassled to do the "God thing," though I have to admit I would find the references to supernatural powers something of a barrier myself.
No, no!
"Higher power" does not necessarily mean supernatural power. I'm sure there's somebody out there with Evolution as their higher power. Or Beauty.
There's also the slogan "Take what you like and leave the rest." "The rest" can definitely include the supernatural.
I think the insistence on a "higher power," and/or "God as we understood God' is pragmatically useful, in that it takes the alcholic out of themselves.
Sorry to be defending this so hard, but I had a very good experience with Al-Anon, back in the day. It's the only (quasi-) spiritual system I've ever had the slightest desire to defend!
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
i'm not knocking it--
i'm trying to reconcile and understand -- the reliance on 1 buddy (or whatever it's called) and the group meetings and support -- with something not there, and seen by some as religious.
like, is it self-help, or group help (like Weight Watchers or a million other things)? is it required that there be a focus outside them? instead of just them helping each other thru a problem via these steps, and support they get -- not from something else -- but from each other alone?
it seems like the power is all in the individual and group --with the group's help and extensive support as absolutely vital -- and via using the steps (also necessary) as a way to solve the problem.
in a way, it's because of religion -- that makes me see it as religious maybe. like "do good so you'll go to heaven -- after this life" or "do good because we're all here together now, and it makes everything better here and now -- for everyone" ...
a focus on something -- some "power"ful thing -- outside the person and group all working together to do something -- that's what i don't see as necessary and what i see as religious -- in a purely Christian kind of way, i guess.
Higher power
my understanding (derived from family members and friends) is that Lambert is right on -- your 'higher power' can be belief in the love of your family, or in the (entirely non-religious) wonders of the universe, or your collection of 1920s Coke bottles, if that's what matters to you.
(speaking of higher powers, it's freakin' snowing here again, what's up with that?)
Probably for most who go to AA, it's one of what VL describes as supernatural entities. But in reality it's whatever will help, and whatever will get a person with an alcohol problem to either draw on something outside themselves for strength, comfort, whatever they need to help them stay away from alcohol, and to get them to think outside themselves. And, as Lambert points out, if thinking on a higher power doesn't work for you, then you can skip that part.
It's a tool, not the price of admission or an indoctrination method. Atheists can skip the tool and use other parts of the system. Many people do believe in some sort of higher power, and the HP tool helps them. But it's miles and miles away from creepy ex-gay ministry cults like Warren's.
AA has a sponsor system, which is not so much a buddy system as it is a sort of a mentor-helper in your recovery, someone who has already walked the path you're on who understands what you are going through, and can sympathize, empathize, cajole, harass, inspire as needed from the same place you're in now. It's someone you can call at 3 in the morning when you're at your nadir rather than opening up a bottle. The higher power belief and the group support system work together (it's not either/or). I suppose that for someone who does believe in a higher power, the group and your sponsor are your RL helpers/counselors/supporters, while your higher power is your abstract one. They all work together.
Reasonable men adapt themselves to their environment; unreasonable men try to adapt their environment to themselves. Thus all progress is the result of the efforts of unreasonable men. -- George Bernard Shaw
The thing is...
I'm not arguing about the higher-power stuff. In fact, I've spoken positively about AA's relatively hands-off approach.
But let's be honest about what "God as we understand Him" means. Almost all of us in this society understand God to mean YHWH or his son or the like, whether we believe in Him or not.
but it's not an abstract problem that needs help on --
it's purely a Real-life one.
that's what i don't get -- why, if you have the group -- and the sponsor -- is any abstract help even involved?
isn't it like praying then? or not believing that you and the group are enough? what is the higher power supposed to do or help on this with that the group and yourself can't?
I believe the idea - & someone more informed please correct me
Is to realize that the drink/drug/other addiction is bigger than you and to call upon some even bigger source to steel yourself against those big-ass demons.
Because it works
I'm not sure that the governing principles are so much concerned with the metaphysical as the practical. I don't think AA is really about finding the minimal workable formula as it is going with the formula that works for as many people as possible.
Most people do believe in a higher power (isn't it something like 75% of Americans believe angels exist?). And your higher power is/can be with you all the time, unlike the group or your sponsor. Part of the point of AA, I believe, is understanding your own limitations and getting yourself out of your own head.
I don't know how much it is like praying -- I imagine it depends on the person, whether praying is something they do anyway. I do know AA often invokes the Serenity Prayer ("God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference"), which, excluding the 'God' at the beginning, is fairly good advice all 'round.
Reasonable men adapt themselves to their environment; unreasonable men try to adapt their environment to themselves. Thus all progress is the result of the efforts of unreasonable men. -- George Bernard Shaw
"God as we understand God" surely means
Something supernatural, whether we choose to believe in it/him/her/them or not.
I imagine there are some non-big 3 monotheistic religions that
would say otherwise, but as a practical matter, "we all understand" that when people in these parts say "God," they're talking about a super-being.
Nope
The operative phrase is as we understood. It's not about theological rigor. Why do you think atheists could stand it?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Atheists stand it because it's net-net a good deal
And because, apparently, they don't rub your face in it. So it's relatively easy to compartmentalize that, and because they can constructively use the "higher power" concept in ways that aren't God-centric.
But let's not pretend that many of us, in this predominantly Judeo-Christian society, fail to "understand" that God refers to a supernatural being.
"Take what you like and leave the rest"
The strength of the program is that if the supernatural being bit does not work for you, you will be encouraged to find a Higher Power that does. There is no "pretence" involved here (certainly not in my experience) and it's your own understanding that counts -- "many of us" do not seek recovery as a body; recovery is only sought and obtained by individuals working the program. See Valhalla's comment above.
This is, again, why the notion of an evangelical 12 step program is so very, very perverse, and I mean the word "perverse" in its strongest possible sense.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
The pretense is that...
..."God as we understand Him" might reasonably refer to something non-supernatural.
They could use a term like "conscience" or "nature" or "life force" or something if they didn't want such implications, but they refer to "God" as a "Him."
I'm not knocking the program, not at all, just admitting that God/Him surely implies the supernatural.
All I can tell you is that in my experience...
... and based on the words and actions of others, it didn't. And Valhalla is saying the same. YMMV, of course. People can judge the pretence, if any, for themselves, I imagine.
My second-hand comments re: the experience don't contradict you
I've repeatedly stated that my understanding is that the group is not the least oppressively religious.
I'm discussing a particular phrase, and that's it.
It's truthy to pretend that the phrase isn't freighted with supernaturalism.
Only if you think that the meaning...
... of "particular phraseis" is context-free, eh?
Personally, I think AA is to be commended for reducing the phrase's virulence! If only others would follow suit.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
The context is
That I have several comments upstream that praise AA for its evident light touch on things religious, but that I dispute as whitewashing the idea that it didn't deliberately fly close to or into the flame with the "God/Him" construction.
Er, no
The context is the context in which the words are actually spoken in AA; the "native speakers" if you will. Based on my experience, I don't believe there is any "pretence" or "whitewashing" going on. YMMV.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
The pretense I'm referring to is in this thread
talking past the reality of what, for nearly all of us -- including atheists -- Him-God refers to.
Your experience is completely outside of what I'm talking about. For the thousandth time, I'm not criticizing the experience or methodology of AA, just being scrupulous about what Him-God means to anyone whose frame of reference is our predominantly Judeo-Christian culture.
If they didn't want to invoke the notion of a super-being, they wouldn't have mentioned a Him-God. Past that, they seem quite chill about it, and I have no desire to knock them.
Then perhaps...
... "pretense" and "whitewashing" aren't the words for the thought that you're trying to convey.
Because who's doing the pretending and the whitewashing? Where's the agency? Is it me? Is it Valhalla?
I assume not, so it must be AA. This whole thread reminds me of the kind of book review where the reviewer wished the author had written a different book than they in fact wrote. It's not AA's job to straighten out the predominant culture. It is AA's job to help the suffering alchoholic. If focusing on their mission, and developing concepts and vocabulary to support it, be "pretense" and "whitewashing," then have at it, say I.
As far as "Him," there are plenty of groups that substitute less onerous vocabulary.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Baby, it's you
I think you're scrubbing Him-God of its obvious meaning. "As we understand him" gives some wiggle-room for non-YHWH fans, but it's still reflective of some sort of anthropomorphic deity.
There's an organization that is more like what you want
It's called AU.
It's not called AA.
You say "whitewash" and "pretend" and "scrub," so apparently my experience (and Valhalla's) has no relevance to you, and direct testimony cannot be genuine. An odd position for an opponent of truthiness to take. And endless explanation does no good, so onward.
Read my comments about AA
Throughout the thread. Do I not constantly avow my understanding that they do not bludgeon one with religion? Hence your positive experience there isn't an answer to charges by me of their overweaning religiosity -- because I made no such charges.
This is a semantic argument. You proposed a meaning (or lack thereof) to "God as we understand him" that I dispute.
I'm not surprised or alarmed that
Warren said that. After all, "religion" is his business.
applies to Warren.
Now, if Obama said that, then we'd be right and truly F*cked. (Caveat: I'm not implying that we aren't already F*cked for other reasons.) Sadly, I can't say with any certainty that such words would never pass Obama's lips. Doubly sad, I can easily imagine him saying those very words in a receptive forum.
someone posted a whole bunch
of Obama's religious statements the other day...
Do you mean these?
http://www.correntewire.com/im_shocked_s...
that's them-- zeezee, read and weep
: <
Somehow I missed that post.
Yup, we are right and truly F*cked. Not that I'm surprised, its just that a pony would have been very nice. Maybe we should all just hope for large shovels. So far its pony byproducts as far as the eye can see, but no real ponies.
Religious bigots and the rich get all the ponies, zee --
we get to march behind them--only--purely for entertaining them, and Obama (with that shovel you mentioned). We're also supposed to be thrilled and totally satisfied with that -- and not ever ever dare call out Obama's or their bigotry and lies.
Warren speaks -- "loves" everybody--& fan of Etheridge too
ugh.
Batterers "love" their wives, girlfriends
And yet they still hold them hostage, terrorize them, and even murder them.
God, the more this misogynistic, homophobic asshat talks, the more I want to beat the shit out of him. And those aren't thoughts one should be having so close to the holidays. I've been feeling so bad about this (and other fuckery) I've taken to watching this repeatedly to cheer me up.