Ok, I may use profanity every once in a while but I usually do not get really angry.
I should have known better than click on that link that Lambert posted (I won't reproduce it here). And I definitely should have known better than read the comments.
It started with the usual stuff that makes Lambert's title so right on target: If you don't support Obama, go fuck yourself or any variation of that theme, traitors, etc.
And then I read this and I thought I was going to lose it. Like my title says, I'm still trembling with rage:
"At the end of WWII, all the French whores who serviced the Germans were rounded up. Their heads were shaved, and they were tarred and feathered.
At the end of a war, the victorious side settles its debts. If you helped, you get a reward. If you did not help, you are in serious trouble.
Posted by dataguy"
"I like the shaven head and tar and feathering idea for Clintonistas!!
Posted by Mandy"
And then happily moving on the claiming an absence of misogyny.
Maybe it's because I'm French and my grandparents were members of the resistance and AGAINST the head shaving disgrace. Most of the shaving was done by former collaborators who suddenly had turned resistant zealots when they felt the way the wind was blowing. But I guess ignorance of history is no problem.
I never thought I'd say this: I hate these people.
Lambert: feel free to delete if you don't think it's appropriate.
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Scorched Earth
Obama started a civil war within our own party by declaring us republicans/enemies and it's not subsiding. They truly believe every lie told about Hillary and us. How can I ever support that? You don't fucking demonize and use right wing talking points that are based in misogyny and hate. You DO NOT make a fucking all out enemy of your fellow democrats.
PB 2.0 - Supplement the wonk!
I believe it's called the "Hells Angel rule"
"Just because you started the barfight doesn't mean you get to decide when it's over."
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“But hysteria is all the rage these days, I guess” - gqm
x
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“I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat.” - Will Rogers
I think they relish the hatred
There is too much glee in these comments (how many of them?).
It's over AFAIC. I have nothing in common with these people. They are not liberal, they are not progressive.
They are just bullies who took control of the party apparatus and are now drunk with their own power.
They are not my political allies.
Go Global!
The video of that panel...
should not be watched alone. It was tolerable watching it in real time, with the commenting crew over at TL there to provide "support" in real time... but watching it alone has got to be traumatic.
The mob grows, grabs more torches...
Tar and feathers... I'm surprised I haven't seen that particular fantasy threat sooner, since it's been obvious for some time our party has fallen under mob rule, guided by little more than mob frenzy and mob hysteria. The misogynistic undertones aren't too subtle.
I would literally be afraid to be in that stadium for the nomination event. Just a few whispers of a critical comment being overheard then repeated till it was beyond recognition into: "Hey, I heard that woman say the most vile thing about Obama" and there could be violence. Many men criticize too, but I think women would be easier and more hated targets.
What I don't get...
... is why they want us in the party, since we're all racists (since we support the racist Clintons (who everybody knows are racists, since after NH, and before SC, the Obama campaign, the OFB
, and our famously free press told us so, over and over again. Often directly to our faces))).
Oh, wait. I've figured it out. They want our money, not us. Check. As it were.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Money from US?
We're not the Dems' new treasured elite base. What the hell can former HRC supporters bring with our unhip, declasse average lower incomes? Oh yeah.
Collaborators shaving heads.
Most of the shaving was done by former collaborators who suddenly had turned resistant zealots when they felt the way the wind was blowing.
That makes the whole thing a particularly apt metaphor since so many netroots bigwigs were Republicans and/or pro-war. I guess it fits Anglachel's "political honor killing" analysis.
Accounts of that terrible time are almost too painful to read. Somebody could write a long book of human history entitled Blame it on the Women.
The Democrats: a roach motel for progressive energies
- VastLeft
That book is starting to be written in places like this:
That piece is delusional
I mean, seriously:
" Most of America under 50 is sick to tears of the way Boomers -- both left and right -- do politics. They're fed up with that confrontational eat-shit Nixonland political style that's defined everything for 40 years. It's rigid and polarizing and hostile to compromise, and the country is suffering mightily because it's paralyzed us so thoroughly. Hell, even the GOPpers are over it: they're reaching back to a Silent generation candidate rather than put up another Boomer. (If anyone uses the word "Vietnam" between now and November, violence may ensue. In fact: I'll quite cheerfully hurl the first brick myself.)
Obama, standing on the cusp of Gen X himself, looked at the numbers; and he carefully crafted his campaign to appeal to this emerging group, who see far more clearly what's not getting done, and don't have a lot of patience with anyone who seems likely to let their personal pursuit of power get in the way of getting the country back on track. They're done with Nixon, Reagan, Bushes, and yes, both Clintons, too. (...)
These younger generations are going to do politics in a very different way. Where we Boomers tended to be rugged indvidualists who stood outside the system, questioned authority relentlessly, and demanded that things change to suit us, these younger voters like to form up teams, get inside a system, take it over, and remake it from the inside out to suit them. They're not afraid of rules and structure; and they don't have a lot of patience with people they see as tantrum-throwers, or those who'd rather stand outside and offer critiques than get involved and do something constructive. These are important cultural differences that could lead to some serious miscommunication if we're not careful. "
There is so much that is wrong I don't even know where to start.
Go Global!
I Was Very Disappointed in The Piece
I think there's a couple of things at work. First, I think a lot of feminists want to support Obama and try to rationalize what happened to make that easier. Second, I've found that a lot of women bloggers speak very carefully about Obama and his "movement." I think it's because they've seen so many ugly blog swarms, they don't want to be at the center of another one. They almost always reflexively mention the racism in the campaign, even when the primary point of their post is the misogyny. Now, thinking people know there can be both and just because you are denouncing misogyny does not mean you are approving of racism or denying its existence. But these blog swarms are not thinking people. So now, you can't discuss the misogyny without mentioning racism because otherwise, you get swarmed.
When I read Sara's piece, it seemed written to prevent the kind of hate-filled blog swarms we've seen this cycle. I get that impression a lot these days. I wince at Digby sometimes or more accurately for Digby because every time she criticizes Obama or mentions sexism, she puts in so much qualifying language that should be unnecessary to any thinking person (and Digby is a thinking person) that I just know it's to try to keep her comments under control.
When you bully people constantly and relentlessly, it works. At least in the short run.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. " - Eleanor Roosevelt
"... form up teams, get inside a system, take it over..."
Great job on that, A listers! I found the doctored War Room video and that RFK smear particularly instructive ...
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
I'm a GenXer
but I always thought skepticism of authority is a good thing.
Oh, and of the supposed individualism of the boomer (opposed to the cool and shiny new social networking of the younger generation), Sara seems to forget that in Western societies, Boomers were at the roots of many social movements... you know, when people actually get together and organize themselves for political causes?
Geebus.
Go Global!
Right-wing framing throughout
It permeates the whole piece.
The Obama wing is proving with each passing day its weird eagerness to internalize GOP efforts to discredit liberals.
The GOP must be dancing with amazed joy to see the anti-boomer meme they worked so hard to grow take root... in young Dems!
Red and blue state values both have been moved left by Boomer environmentalism, women's and racial equality, gay rights... and most Americans, whether they realize it or not, appreciate this deeply. They would find an America suddenly without "boomer values" a horrifying place indeed. It's crucial to future GOP success that Americans forget this and learn to hate the DFHs
.
Is that for real?
Bigotry somehow becomes acceptable because of...timing?
Sure!
As long as good people control the timing, of course.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Good people vs. bad people
The TPM writer and participants express agreement that social trends were such that it was easier for a black man than a white woman to be nominated. It was inevitable, they say. Obama was aided by his race. An observation recently held to be so vile that otherwise innocent people's reputations were destroyed for uttering it.
Oui, cherchez la femme, toujours
Historian Francis Parkman, in his massive two-volume England and France in North America, blamed the loss of Canada on Mme. Pompadour! Seriously. Talk about an unsatisfying conclusion. Never mind the centuries of warfare between and among Indian, English, and French people, and never mind that it took 150 years for the English to become the dominant European power--it's all the bitch's fault.
You had a stronger stomach than I--I had to stop reading the
comments after about the first 5 or so. I also got pretty PO'd--but not shaking with rage. Now, I feel the rage.
I cannot believe these people! Shave heads and tar and feather us??? Wow.
Thank you, Sen. Obama, for showing your followers how to behave in a political battle. Take no prisoners, right? Unless they kneel down in obeisance? Or prostrate themselves? Get down, now, Sweeties.
The Best Part
is that in some of the same comments they then demand that we join them. As if that's going to work. It doesn't make me want to give Obama money, it makes me want to run far away. Now, these are just internet trolls, but there are a lot of them - and always have been - around every Obama thread on every major blog.
I'm sounding like a broken record, I know, but the kind of hatred and misogyny that was allowed to run rampant by the party and the campaign, fueled by the media, isn't just going to go away. It had always been there under the surface of the culture (remember Olbermann's pretty young things videos) and now it's been released unrestrained. And these guys are enjoying it. They finally get to kick the shit out of women, at least verbally, and not be criticized for it. Have you ever seen anyone at TPM come in and try to calm them down? How about at Kos?
It really has nothing to do with supporting Obama. It's just the cover they use to give their hatred purpose. Obama and the party were willing to allow it when it helped Obama and that was their mistake, both morally and politically. Because now it can hurt Obama, but there isn't a lot they can do to control it. This is very ugly and it's going to get uglier, I'm afraid. You don't inject the kind of hatred into the national body politic for months like the kind aimed at Clinton and then walk away as if it never happened. Because the poison is still in the blood, flowing free.
At most, what you get is all the "who me?" rationalizations like the panel yesterday. Where they try to clean up things by denying a lot of what happened happened. Because after these orgies of hate, some folks always feel bad about themselves the next morning. Not bad enough to admit what they've done, but bad enough to try to clean it up and make it look less offensive.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. " - Eleanor Roosevelt
I considered Orcinus the go-to blog regarding racism and
hate crimes. Now I'll have to consider it the blog for hate crimes, if women are not involved, because, you know, ethnic hate crimes come first.
I knew Sara was wobbly toward the leftist Christian evangelical flank of the party, but now she's claimed that mantle entire. Good luck to her and Neiwert. I'll remember where their blind spots are from now on.
Me too
Orcinus is my one-stop-shop for all things white supremacy and nativist nonsense.
Sobering, isn't it?
Go Global!
Cheese and rice...
That was Sara from Orcinus? We are so fucked.
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
PB 2.0
Be the change...
We're not fucked, not completely. We just have our work cut out for us.
Go Global!
apparently
Eliminationist rhetoric is in the eye of the beholder.
You really do need to go and read the entire "guestpost" series at OpenLeft.... you linked to Melissa's belatedly, and there were three more after that, all supposedly on the topic "feminist and womanist perspectives on Hillary Clinton's withdrawal from the race -- and why this matters to progressives"
After Melissa's post, hoowever, it stopped having anything to do with feminist/womanist perspective. Both Sara and rikyrah's post were antithetical to the FW perspective, and Pam's was just plain pointless and stupid.
And then go read Jon's attack on me, for pointing out that I was right in saying that these posts had nothing to do with feminism. (He goes so far as to accuse me of not understanding the topic by pulling a quote out from comments, and noting that I'd left crucial parts out of my description of the topic. Of course, the comment in question was in response to someone who was responding to a comment in which I'd quoted the full purpose of the guestblogging series...TWICE.
http://openleft.com/tag.do?tag=guestblog...
(then read my response to Jon... I REALLY let it rip.)
PLuk =...
Fortitude: "mental and emotional strength in facing difficulty, adversity, danger, or temptation courageously."
Go Global!
wow!
Having called "bullshit!" on OpenLeft, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't yell "Bullshit!!" even if it is flattering toward me. ;)
This must be reiterated whenever possible
"...if you are going to have a real discussion of the feminist perspective, you are going to have to open it up to the ideas of progressive women who are not on board with Obama because (to quote what YOU told me I had 'forgotten') IT MATTERS TO PROGRESSIVES."
Well done, Paul.
"trying to rile the troops"--
"... They're trying to rile the troops. The DNC's still using the same playbook but the arena has changed. Obama never did so well in the polls as when he was running against Clinton and it was a big beat the b*tch competition. And now Obama's stagnant in the polls and the usual rah-rah hopey-changey stuff isn't working.
They can't ressurrect the anti-Clinton fever against Clinton directly because she's now 'unified' (ok, yeah, whatever). But they can take aim at her supporters.
.." --perfect analysis of this email from a comment at TalkLeft-- http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2008/7/...
The problem? They waited. They didn't kill PUMA in the crib,
they didn't smear it successfully as a GOP black op (especially once Obama openly ran to the right and sought the approval of Colin Powell and other influential conservatives -- they had absolutely no room to move), and the Clinton money people held the line enough for it to be talked about.
That, and the picking-lentils-out-fo-ashes organizational task they gave PUMAns and Just Say No Deal folk, about Clinton's campaign debt. Money concentrates the mind wonderfully, and cements commitment. If Obama simply hashed out a debt retirement deal with his big machers, Clinton would have been bought and paid for, and she most likely would have been forced to give up her delegates months before Denver.
As it stands, the leakers/incompetents that worked for her work for Obama now; their allegiances are out in the open, and not to be forgotten. Groups are organizing to go to Denver, when if they were beaten they'd shut up and sit the DNC out. Clear lines have been drawn.
Even their feeble attempt to drown blogs in faux-spamblog accusations and troll attacks have failed. Even our decrease in attacks meant that someone turned the heat down, right around the time Obama was compromising every issue he could lay his 'progressive' hands on. If the trolls weren't organized, why did they stop? School's out for the young creative class; people take vacation. More time for blogging, not less...
So, while the Obaman handlers and operatives wound down their operation to make the general public forget how savage and misogynist they were, the loyal opposition prepared, all during the time that if they stopped their incendiary rhetoric toward Clinton supporters, they could have gained real ground in forcing party unity. The more fools, them....
Internalized misogyny
With regards to BDB's comment that these women are trying to "prevent" hate swarms: I agree. However, as well all know: appeasement never works. Ever.
Sometimes I can't tell if the collapse of so-called "feminist" blogs during the anti-female hate attacks is due to appeasement...or internalized misogyny--especially by younger women or those who claimed refusing to vote for HRC was proof they were "free" women (Mind you, this obviously excludes the likes of anti-feminist women like "Mandy" and her embrace of shaming French victims of misogynistic hate crimes; honestly, French women and girls were not truly free to "consent" to any "sex" with an occupying force).
I mean, has anyone checked out gossip sites and the comments--by young women and teen girls? Talk about hate swarms. My friend sent me this link about a woman film reviewer who criticized the lack of multi-dimensional women in The Dark Knight and action movies in general (I loved the movie, but she's right). The reflexive, casual hate at the gossip site is out of control. Hundreds of comments. Again, almost all of the people there are teen girls and early twentysomething women (Obama demographic; the site was apparently quite Obama-friendly, anti-HRC). Granted, I am 27 and, thus, "old" by the standards of these bigoted asshats, but damn. And they're normal.
I guess the only gender equality I'll see in my lifetime is in both sexes pledging fierce allegiance to misogynistic bigotry.
Trigger warning
My God, Davidson, that link! I had no idea this kind of thing was going on. Young WOMEN saying things like "feminist cunt," "shut the fuck up bitch and go shave your armpits," and "you should go back to the kitchen"?! What are the bastards doing to our children?! Who ARE the bastards, anyway?! How widespread is this?! If it is, it explains so much, especially the startling amount of sexism, no misogyny, coming from women and the odd acceptance by so many. Have I been living in a vacuum? I'm just stunned. I need to find out what's going on and get involved. I've been out of feminism far too long. Our children are in danger.
I've been trying to assess the appeasement vs. internalization issue too. But I see that it's not possible without more understanding of widespread social undercurrents about which the MSM may be too cool to sound the alarm. I'm afraid of what I may find.
Tactless question, but
it would take real research to find out how many are really young women. On the Internet, nobody knows, and so forth...
[ ] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
I honestly don't know which I'd rather believe
Male or female, young or old. I looked at the profiles of a few of the worst commenters, and a couple had numerous journal posts seeming to belong to high school or college females. If these are posers, they would have had to have been going to quite a bit of trouble over a period of months. It didn't seem associated with meeting one another, just to discuss Batman, so I lean toward taking it at face value.
These posts were interspersed with a huge amount of sexuality being expressed and attention-seeking from males. I'm afraid we could be seeing the logical outgrowth of the hypersexualization of young girls.
If this is true, then the appeasement vs. internalizing angle is moot; they're doing both.
I blame the sororities -- full-service agencies for fraternities
There was a time when membership in a sorority meant learning a bit about being skeptical about men, and about protecting your fellow sorors from the worst actors. Now I see it's all about teaching bingeing and male-dominant sexual skills. The idea that a young woman could be a non-drinker and sexually inactive in one seems inconceivable, now.
Fuck
the concept of public service; parties matter more, on and off campus.
Sadly, those comments are all too typical
Yes, this is how teen girls and young women talk today--in real life. Mind you, as a millenial myself I was already used to hearing slurs used as synonyms for "woman" or "girl" (Thanks, commercialized hip hop!); this primary finally made me take notice of how bad it's gotten.
The open embrace of no-holds-barred bigotry by the young--including women and girls--is something that isn't mentioned enough in discussing why Obama felt at ease in exploiting misogyny, knowing his most cherished demographic would run with it--and online where it would go viral.
For a generation that supposedly denounces intolerance, we sure do make an exception for anti-female extremism (Even on that fucked up site, racism and homophobia are condemned while misogyny is celebrated). We're in a death spiral--especially online. No matter how "liberal" or "enlightened," misogyny remains The One True God. Apparently, only a bigotry that directly affects males is allowed to be taken seriously. Thus, misogyny will continue to be treated on par with bad manners and the basic rights of women/girls will be seen as technicalities--at best.
Language choice is key to this warped perception. Compare how misogyny is described versus other forms of bigotry. Notice how misogyny is the only one that is always trivialized as "disrespect," rather than referred to as "bigotry" or "intolerance" and "hate;" how misogynistic slurs are always distorted as generic insults or mere "profanity;" and how misogynistic violence is never referred to as a "hate crime" even when it happens in a state that recognizes gender as a hate crime factor.