That makes them think this

"If Obama can, in fact, create a newer, larger, broader, and more responsive party infrastructure -"

Is possible? I guess maybe they have just sat in their echo chambers for so long they really don't get that at least a 25% of the party is ready to quit(I'm changing my voter registration to independent on May 21, well 22, I have a field trip on 21). Obama is going to lose Latinos. Period, McCain is somewhat sane on immigration, he won't play to the xenophobia, and Obama will lose them. He'll have AA's and bloggers. That's all I'm seeing as his coalition. Of course many people will come back, hell I might come back(though doubtful), but it won't be enough.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

is disgusting--shameful.

this is very relevant too-- "... what Obama has put together is not so much a coalition as a fan club, right? I mean, you don’t build a movement around a political campaign. I know I’ve heard people say that, well—you know, Kool-Aid drinkers have said that, well, you know, this could be—he could set in motion forces like those that moved FDR in a progressive direction, those that moved JFK in a progressive direction. But as Will Jones, the historian at the University of Wisconsin, has pointed out, you know, that comparison fails, because in each of those cases there were dynamic, rooted social movements that had been pushing for progressive agendas with popular bases on the ground prior to the election of the president. ...
fall completely flat, because this is a candidate- centered politics. ..." --
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/30/th...

He got totally out maneuvered by Clinton. She had the latin@ vote locked up before he even approached them. I remember going crazy on election day wondering if Obama's last minute pitch (which won over a couple of latin@ SDs and Piolin (a popular DJ)) was going to work. When the East LA volunteers came back after canvassing, I asked one of them. She laughed and said he couldn't show up a couple of weeks before an election and offer us driver's licenses for undocumented workers, which some latin@s are against anyway, and expect us to vote for him.

As for Asians, there were no Obama signs to speak of in Little Tokyo or other Asian enclaves. He seemed to have very little presence in these neighborhoods.

it's kinda the opposite of Dubya--he was the puppet (and hereditary/legacy member of) a real (and real evil) movement who got installed so that the movement could get their things done no matter what---while Obama is trying to create a movement to get himself installed, and never has been part of any movement or identified with one.

What is below is something I started as a post, but its way too squishy for what I do...

*********

First came the early adherents--these folks were the ones who had been to an Obama rally, and have been touched by The Presence .... they were few and far between in the blogosphere, and were annoying, but not pervasive.

Then came the Kos Kommunity Kommandos -- the cultization of the progressive blogosphere really began the day (Dec 12) that Lord Markos announced that as a result of a "process of elimination" he was personally supporting Obama. He wasn't proselytizing, but the groupthink at DKos resulted in the cult actually taking shape, merging the adoration of the early adherents with the "5 minute hate" model of the DKos. DKos exists as a community only in terms of what it is against, and now, it had a new enemy -- Hillary Clinton.

The process of assimilation of A-list bloggers commenced as well, as their Dkos cross-over readership, combined with their own personal ambitions to be "mainstreamed" (either by a publication, or by becoming a cable "commentator") made sane neutrality a virtual impossibility. The moment of conversion itself was the day that Bill Clinton publicly mentioned that Obama's victory in SC was not surprising, considering that Jesse Jackson had won there in 84 and 88 -- a perfectly reasonable pronouncement that was treated as if Bill Clinton had announced his elevation to the position of Grand Kleagle in front of a field of burning crosses.

Even blogs that attempted to stay above the fray were absorbed in this mania. FDL is a notable example of a blog that tried to stay out of the mess, but wound up being assimilated anyway through the sheer force of numbers.

But what we are now seeing is a Third Wave -- what started as a fan base, and morphed into a cult, is now becoming the "state religion" under the banner "One Party Unified, Right or Wrong".

While the first two waves of Obama cultist were clearly irrational, this Third Wave is "rational" in its own way. It adopts the rhetoric of Obamania not out of conviction but out of necessity -- McCain is, and always has been, the true evil, and to strike down that evil will require will require Unity, and Unity requires Leadership, and thus the Leadership is de facto legitimized, the Leader becomes infallible, and the necessary adjustments in philosophy are made to accomodate that infallibility.

And all the tricks of the trade are dragged out -- including the most pernicious one of all..."the family". (I love you CD, but...) But we don't choose our families. We do choose our parties. And while the emotional bonds to a community can seem like a "family" its not the same thing.

Those of us who won't go along with this charade may well become the Democratic Party equivalents of Ron Paul adherents -- a fringe group that represents the true soul of the party before "The Party" became more important than what it stood for.

But this is my party, and I'm gonna stay and fight for its soul.

-----------------------------------------------
" . . . we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender . . ."- Winston Churchill

But then, it always is. It's just that I thought I would end up with a different choice of evils than I did anyhow. This so-called movement stuff--the Civil Rights movement was a movement--gives me the creeps, and always has. I wouldn't mind it quite so much if it were in the party, but it's not in the party. It's focused on one, charismatic figure.*

What could go wrong?

H-e-l-l-l-l-o....

NOTE * If I take Boller and Stowers at their word, and their longing for a Leader is so pathetic, I have to think that they're getting what they came for...

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

you could make that less "squishy" by charting and timelining it w/links, i bet.

(altho i like it as it is) : >

is far more important than the distinction between good and better. - Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein)

---------------------------------------------------
" . . . we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender . . ."- Winston Churchill

I'm just shaking my head about all these exuberant posts proclaiming what Obama is going to do to the party and the movement he is making and on and on.

H-e-l-l-o! When has this man ever given any indication of doing any of these things these people are rhapsodizing about? When has he ever mentioned anything of substance at all?

If any of this is true in the least, then someone is pulling his strings, which I've always suspected anyway. He doesn't give me the slightest indication of a person who goes out and accomplishes things. I'm hard put to think of anything at all of consequence that he has ever accomplished in his entire life. Where are these people getting this stuff? Have I unknowingly dropped into a parallel universe?

What makes us think that he can improve the party infrastructure? The fact that it's already happening, really. Never, until 2006 when I started reading blogs, did I even think about the Congressional elections that are, I think, more important collectively and more interesting than the Presidential election. The way I see it, Obama's ability to electrify people has a very good chance of making those people into party activists in the first place, into people who really identify with the party, thus fueling local organization, which is what really matters. That is, a true 50-state-plus-territories strategy that is centered not on winning an election but on winning all elections.

That said, if disillusioned Clinton supporters leave the Democratic party, they'd be chopping off their noses to spite their faces. The Clinton vs. Obama debate is a matter of opinion; Democrats vs. Republicans is a matter of moral conviction, of wanting to move our nation forward rather than straight down to hell.

So when Clinton unfortunately does not win the nomination, her supporters will attend the rallies she holds in support of the nominee, perhaps disappointed that their candidate didn't win but certainly energized to make sure McCain doesn't win. What if Clinton were a Republican? Would we be all over her because she's a woman candidate? No, Clinton supporters are much more intelligent than that and would never, ever see all they are fighting for simply evaporate for four years with John McCain in power. Not without actually fighting for it. This is a battle for our liberal values, and we as Democrats choose who to best lead this battle, not whether to fight it.

In November, make sure to vote for your Democratic Senator and Congressperson, your Democratic Attorney General and State Senator, your Democratic doggerel catcher -- actually, maybe the Republican doggeral catcher deserves to be in office. (:

"That said, if disillusioned Clinton supporters leave the Democratic party, they’d be chopping off their noses to spite their faces. The Clinton vs. Obama debate is a matter of opinion; Democrats vs. Republicans is a matter of moral conviction,"

maybe I should turn my "One Party Unified, Right or Wrong" comment into a post, just so people know what I'm talking about when I refer to "Third Wavers".

don't forget to mention Roe v. Wade!! :-)

Have said they do not care to vote Dem in down ticket races. They are there for Obama, not the Party. They have no intention of becoming activists. And let's not forget that about half of these new voters are coming out for Clinton not Obama.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

I'm a racist.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

Obama supporters were actually smart, rational, well-meaning,

You just aren't one of them, rootless.

Your CDS is apparent in many of your posts, so that precludes rational.

Bill Clinton for First Dude!!!

But then, it always is. It’s just that I thought I would end up with a different choice of evils than I did anyhow. This so-called movement stuff—the Civil Rights movement was a movement—gives me the creeps, and always has. I wouldn’t mind it quite so much if it were in the party, but it’s not in the party. It’s focused on one, charismatic figure.*

If you would stop getting all your news from Fox and take time to learn what, e.g. Jesse Jackson Jr. has been up to, you might learn something.

It's all about repudiating right wing framing. He turned around on a dime when giving his blessing to Obama.

If you listen to Obama, and then look at his advisers and big money supporters, he is DLC and CATO Institute through and through.

But what would I know? I'm just one of those foolish "old-time" Democrats who learned about the New Deal from my parents who survived WWII, the dust bowl and the Great Depression. Then, silly me, I grew up liking JFK, LBJ, and RFK.

Now I don't have a party anymore. It's quite freeing actually.

Who?

Not that it's important. After all, I'm a racist. And uncreative.

[x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

On economics, we have Austan Goolsbee, a Milton Friedmanite who strongly supports unfettered "free trade." (An Obot reader tells me that Austan is a left-wing Friedmanite. That's like saying "I was the tallest midget in Time Bandits.") We also have the Cato Institute's Jeff Liebman, who wants to privatize Social Security, as Bush had hoped to do. David Cutler is the guy who put together the health-care plan designed to leave millions of the poorest uninsured. Both Cutler and Goolsbee strongly oppose single-payer health care -- and both opposed Michael Moore's Sicko. (Not that Moore cares about consistency; in his case, "Clinton Derangement Syndrome" trumps all other concerns.)

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2008/05/b...

This dude's seriously anti-Libertarian, which is refreshing to see, on the Web....

Remember when during 2006 the news was all about Illinois corruption, systemic in its bones and on its face? When just about every major public employee was involved in a scandal, and we heard about it in the papers?

Look how quiet the room got, as they try to elect a President.

It has been characteristic here and on similar places on the Net that the possibility that some Obama supporters were actually smart, rational, well-meaning, people who might be right, is dismissed out of hand. Instead, we see a process in which long-term progressives and liberals insist that their former allies and colleagues and heroes have all betrayed them or been “assimilated” into some cult.

the problem is that all these "smart people" took a leap of faith -- and will acknowledge it as such in supporting Obama.

But as each week passes, and the evidence that their faith was not justified intensifies, they don't become skeptics -- instead they do what cultists do, and simply pretend that it either "doesn't matter" or that "they knew it all along", and wind up writing crap that two years ago they would have been mocking.

The Clinton supporters are the real "reality based community".... we're practical and cynical.

Here's a new metaphor...

The united states is a delabidated house you just bought. You can hire one person to fix it up. Clinton supporters want to hire a "handyman" who is going to patch up the roof, stop the 2nd floor toileet from leaking into the first floor living room ceiling, etc.

And Obama supporters want to hire an interior designer.

and not based on evidence but on their own desires. And they're refusing to see the reality that their faith is misplaced.

dilapidated, paul : >