because his base is the CDS wing of the party.

They would rather lose than win with Hillary

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“When someone engages in divisive behavior, any resulting division is their responsibility” - Melissa McEwan

Hatred of anything related to Clinton resulted in the devastating loss in '92 after both Houses in safe Democratic hands refused to do a damn thing about health insurance because the Clintons were leading the reform.

Now they'd rather lose in '08 than owe their sure victory to a Clinton.

Dumber than a bag of rocks, that's what Dems are.

but your point is correct

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“When someone engages in divisive behavior, any resulting division is their responsibility” - Melissa McEwan

I mean,it took over two months to "negotiate" Hillary's name being placed in nomination -- something that should have been a no-brainer... I mean, ust the fact that she is the first women to ever win a primary of caucus DEMANDS that her name be placed in nomination, and those votes recorded. Forget the whole importance of acknowledging Clinton voters -- the "historic" nature of Clinton's candidacy required that her votes be recorded for posterity.

It would take Team Obama decades to negotiate Hillary's role as the VP in the campaign AND as a member of an Obama administration.

http://myiq2xu.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/...

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“When someone engages in divisive behavior, any resulting division is their responsibility” - Melissa McEwan

Since Obama already let the cat out of the bag with "he" (Shock!), I must wonder about all this Biden talk. If it's Biden, won't people ask how is that a man who can tick off all the supposed reasons why Obama demonized HRC (e.g., a relic of a "broken system," AUMF, partisanship, etc.) is selected and yet the person who can not only best boost the ticket but also guarantee victory is not? The only conclusion would be bigotry.

And this is the same Biden who earned the ire of many women during the Anita Hill hearings--yet another part of our history where misogyny was considered acceptable while any hint of racism against an establishment-backed black man was not. Do we really want to resurrect that ghost, especially after this primary?

Kaine fits so much better with the Obama paradigm in terms of rhetoric and GE strategy and I don't know what the hell Biden brings but an upside down ticket, a "distraction" in strengthening the Democratic economic message to working families*, and rank hypocrisy. And this is without taking into account his racial sensitivity.

*Even Joe Fuckin' Lieberman voted against that travesty. Lieberman!

I've said it before, but Obama has every reason to ask Hillary to be his running mate. She just has every reason to decline it.

Somethings to think about for those that want to see Hillary as his vice president:

Imagine, if she would take such an offer (if it were offered), she could possibly be stuck babysitting Barack (sounds like a TV drama series) for up to 8 prime years of her political life. She would have to be the one to comfort Obama when he recieved a 3 AM call detailing a war that had just jumped off in East Fuckistan (excuse my Fuckese). If the administration ever got universal healthcare passed on a national level, he would be the one to take all of the credit. Etc.

On a less personal note, the question is ultimately if it'd be good for the country. On that one, I can honestly say that I don't know. What I do know is that Hillary would personally be much better off declining such an offer.

Hey, I agree with you totally, DamonMI. I'd *hate* to see her do it. But my sense is that she absolutely would, if asked, because it's really important to her as a woman for there to be at least a female vice president in her lifetime. (I suspect she would support Sebelius with real enthusiasm for that reason.)

Might amuse everybody to know that Chris Matthews has been for a while a big promoter of the idea that Barack needs Hillary on the ticket. He's back from a bout with "pneumonia" today (personally, I suspect annother out-of-control manic episode, but what do I know) and was making a pretty big issue of it tonight. He had a whole map of states where she would, he thinks, put the ticket over the top, and a smaller list of smaller states, mostly in what he calls "the cowboy states" out west, where he thinks she would do the opposite.

He scornfully compared the Obama's unwillingness to deal with the Clintons to lunch tables in the high school cafeteria, which I thought was rather apt.

Pie fight anyone?

Seriously, I've already seen some in the OFB already rationalizing how smart and excellent it would be to ask Hillary to be his vice president. It is always so incredibly bizarre watching their pathological rationalizations of something they'd opposed vehemently just days before. I wouldn't be surprised, if he asked and she obeyed, to see Olbermann singing Obama's praises about how excellent a ticket it would be. lol

but Tweety is no newcomer to the Hillary idea. He's actually a much more "nuanced" opinionator than his reputation and sound bits on left blogs would make one think. I would say that "wildly ambivalent" would not be too over-the-top a characterization of his attitude about Hillary.

I agree, as I said, I would rather she didn't be his vice presidential pick, but there's zero doubt in my mind that she wants it and would accept in a heartbeat, if he were man enough to offer it, which it appears very clear he isn't.

Don't laugh, but I honestly think the experience of this campaign has significantly raised her conscioueness, and that the historical importance of having a woman as VP, whether herself or somebody else, is something that overrides pretty much everthing else in importance for her.

She should have, and could have been, the first female president. But failing that, a female vice president is a giant step forward for women and for the country.

Similarly, the sole redeeming quality, IMO, in an Obama win is the prospect of a first black president, even if he were to be a disaster, which I believe he would be.

I honestly don't believe she's been angling for the vice presidency, and if she has been it would greatly reduce my view of her. I kind of think you're projecting, here, and grossly overstating the significance of a female vice president, especially after she showed how ready and capable she was of being president, and especially after finishing stronger than he did. This is not even to mention that a vice presidency is an appointed slot.

No, it wouldn't be a "big step forward". A big step foward is if she'd have not run at all and was picked as a surprise from the Senate, not running the man to a virtual draw (and winning if you count the popular vote the way I do) in a race were she was subjected to all kinds of sexism and misogyny, and then getting given the spot as a consolation pity prize. I hope most folks would be smart enough to see that her accepting that spot after the primary race that was run against her by her opponent would be validating and approving of every thing he did to her.

Really, if we're discussing this thing from a purely symbolic standpoint, this would be a diaster given this particular primary race. If someone is to argue for her, it better not be for symbolic purposes in this particular instance. BO f'ed up any positive symbolism of choosing her when he chose to characterize her (or go along with the characterization of her) as a cynical, race-baiting bitch.

Sorry, choosing her symbolically as his vice president would never be able to overshadow the disgusting campaign he ran against her. He can't unring that bell, and I sure hope he doesn't try.

good. let's leave that one alone already. its cooked.

___________________________
.delusions of un mundo mejor.

Though like anything else, it can be a euphemism, I supposed.

full of shit a great deal of the time-- but not all the time, is all I'm saying. I've had to watch at least the first half of his show for some years now for various reasons, and I'm just telling ya that the ugly crazy stuff isn't all there is. (I dislike him intensely even when he's being rational, frankly.)

Didn't say Hillary was "angling" for the VP slot, just that she would like to have it happen and would accept it in a heartbeat, if offered.

Honestly, you guys, if you can't see the significance of having a woman for the first time as the elected second in command of the US, I don't know what to say. There is an entirely separate importance to it that goes well beyond how we got here.

I cannot even begin to describe the totally unexpected intensity of my reaction when Mondale first appeared with Gerry Ferraro. It's hard to imagine what it feels like to have for the first time somebody who looks like you even just in those ritualistic appearances where before it was always taken for granted that it was another man. My very powerful reaction to Ferraro is why I can't hold a speck of animus towards African-Americans for going all out for Obama.

I'm honestly torn between wanting that first female VP in history to be Hillary and rather violently not wanting to see her have to play a humiliating second banana to His Majesty.

Ferraro wasn't treated as a dog by the man who selected her. If you can seperate a Hillary Vice Presidency from what her president did to her in the primaries, you've got a more nerve block than anyone I've ever met. If you can overlook all of that, or envision the primary race and a Hillary Clinton vice presidency in two distinct vacuums, you've got a power that I want. The stuff between Hillary and Obama makes the crap between Kennedy and Johnson look like nothing.

The ends don't justify the means. A Hillary Clinton vice president is not an end in itself. How she could get to the vice presidency is just as important as her ending up there. In this case, how she'd have gotten there would totally undo any positive effect it could have as far as symbolism is concerned.

I seriously don't see how anyone could say that the positives of her being vice president after this particular primary could outweigh the negatives it would bring to both her and the ticket.

If Obama wants a trophy, he can go find another one. Sorry, I don't subscribe to the "by any means necessary" ideology, which is exactly why I will fault many of my fellow African Americans for supporting how Obama got to the presidency (if he gets it). In the same way, I will fault any woman that doesn't consider how Hillary got to the vice presidency, if she gets there. I fault blind tribalism from whichever direction it comes.