It appears that I will have the opportunity to speak with some Obama campaign insiders very soon (maybe as soon as tomorrow), and I want to deliver a message about what it will take (if it's possible at all) for folks with the PUMA perspective to vote for Obama, clothespins or no.
Is there anything that if you heard it or saw it would get you to vote for BHO, instead of holding to your current McCain-leaning / third-party-leaning / abstaining-leaning / or persistent not-sure position?
Also, if you're a tepid Obama supporter, what would it take for you to upgrade your support?
If you're beyond convincing, that's good to know, too. But a lot of y'all talk about leverage.
If you, indeed, have leverage over Obama (and I hope you do), what does he have to do to get you to pull the lever for him or possibly more?
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from a friend
in a telephone conversation with a friend, she said Obama needed to say something in his acceptance speech about protecting Social Security as is, saying something nice about atheists, and something about women's rights.
I would suggest he say something nice about Hilllary except I don't think he can do it without being condescending.
Speaking for myself, I would like to hear him say he is going to do something about violence against women in the military.
Obama? Not a Chance. But Down-Ticket?
There is NOTHING that will convince me to vote for Obama. There are too many deal-breakers. The biggest being that he's hardly held a full-time job; he's got the resume of a 27 year old and I don't know who will be his Cheney.
The issue for me (and I AM interested in whether this concerns Obama insiders) is whether I show up to vote at all. I'm so pissed at the Kansas Democrats who endorsed him -- or if they didn't endorse him didn't speak up against the outrage of this primary season -- that I JUST MIGHT not vote at all.
What happens in the swing states if people like me who can't vote Republican decide to Punish Everyone?
I am thinking...thinking
and nothing works for me. My attitude is I don't want the Obama wing to take over the party and do to the Party what Bush and Rove did to the RNC. I don't see coalition building, I see power grabbing. I therefore, frankly, want them to lose. No one should have that much power. The power he is garnering along with "the Movement" and the Axelrod techniques, makes me very uncomfortable.
I am only giving to Emily's list and I was a substantial DNC and Dem overall contributor. I do not want the Chicago mob to do to the DNC what the Texans did. Simple.
What I Want
First, what I don't want - a big speech on sexism. Given his leveraging it and dogwhistling it during the primary, I already know he knows a great deal about sexism. But then I'm one who thought his race speech sucked.
What would impress me? Working with the DNC to revamp the nominating system - no more caucuses, primaries only (preferably closed) and if they stick with proportional representation, split it by state instead of CD. Also, the DNC is supposed to take up the primary schedule, have them actually fix it this time. To prove he's serious, have the DNC try to get it done in time to present it to the convention. And while we're talking about the convention, to the extent the talk about the DNC forcing Hillary's name off the ballot is true, he should say that won't happen. Taking the first viable woman candidate off the ballot would send a fucking lousy signal and reinforce every negative thing he did this campaign.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. " - Eleanor Roosevelt
What Obama could do....
Announce that he realizes that he was right back in 2004 when he said he wouldn't be ready for the Oval Office in 2008, and urge the party to get behind the single best qualified person to be President in America today -- Hillary Clinton.
I'll even settle for him supporting Gore for the nomination, rather than Clinton.
The fact is that there is nothing that he can PROMISE that will make a difference, because he can't PROMISE to be something he is not -- a person with the knowledge, experience, and temperament to be President.
Took the words...
Announce that he realizes that he was right back in 2004 when he said he wouldn’t be ready for the Oval Office in 2008, and urge the party to get behind the single best qualified person to be President in America today — Hillary Clinton.
...right off my keyboard.
Except I don't know that he's ever going to be ready for the Oval Office. He'd have to undergo some kind of massive personality restructuring, get a mensch transplant or something.
Really, there's nothing he can do or say now that would make me feel warmer toward him; as you say, it's who he is that's the problem.
One More Thing
He could go back and fight telecom immunity now that he's the "head" of the party.
So the nomination reform makes me feel better about the party and the FISA better about Obama's policies.
And both could be done before I vote. Actions are what I care about. Promises from a politician - any politician - are for suckers.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. " - Eleanor Roosevelt
Hear, hear -
if he actually spends political capital on issues that matter before the vote, I would consider voting for him.
How could he do that?
He could go one better than Ted Kennedy's promise to sponsor a Senate single-payer health care bill if HR676 got 100 sponsors; i.e. do it now. Introduce the bill now and get 10 co-sponsors in the Senate.
He could rally the Senate to kill telecom immunity.
He could sponsor a civil marriage for all bill and get 10 co-sponsors.
Other ideas?
Promises, statements of support for this or that, symbolic gestures - all are now worthless, because I have no confidence that Obama stands for anything. Let him do something that costs something. Then we'll see.
Policy not party!
BTW...
VL...
you can now stop pretending to have anything to do with PUMA.
Our votes are not for sale -- and you're efforts to negotiate a price for them is anti-thetical to what PUMA is all about.
Opportunity!
If Obama finally wants to ask for our vote, I think that can only be a good thing. A sale is when the campaign hands you walking around money. A vote... Well, I just don't see a politician trying to figure out how to gain my vote in exactly those terms. An exchange isn't necessarily a sale.
And kudos to VL for making this opportunity.
[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lambert...
VL is negotiating for Obama votes....
and the worst part is that he's trying to find out how cheaply we'd sell out -- and for PROMISES.
Unfortunately, I still remember his first promise -- the one about him being the unity pony. It turns out that the Democrats have saddled up a disunity weasel instead.
I'm asking you what you want
If you plan to sell out cheaper than you think you should, that's your mistake.
Someone is wrong on the internet
What happened to the guy that's been screaming about leverage?
Though I've charted a different plan of action from yours, I'm trying my darnedest to see that the (now) prevailing powers of the Democratic Party understand our grievances and understand what's expected of them to make things (relatively) right.
My message to them is incomplete, and I'm looking for guidance from you and others to round it out.
My message is:
* You ignore the dissatisfaction of [not Obama] Democrats at your electoral peril
* We have legitimate concerns and legitimate beefs. Don't "stages of grief" us, "get over it" us, or "stop being so emotional" us.
* While I've personally decided to vote for the disappointing Democrat, there are many more who read the facts just as I do who are not planning to vote for Obama. Some are absolutely not going to vote for him (these, presumably, are Dems the Obama camp will extra-not care about), and some who maybe would (the ones they'd better start caring about).
What my message is missing is what might he/they realistically do between now and November that might gruntle some of the disgruntled. Is that not a proper use of leverage?
yup...
the leverage is withholding out votes to get a decent nominee.
you're just trying to get us to sell out as cheaply as possible.
How cheaply is up to you
If your price is not-Obama, there is no sale. The mighty DNC (Democrats Near Chicago) has ruled.
Fair enough. But "leverage" it ain't. Not for this election cycle.
that is leverage--
our votes are not theirs automatically no matter how much they ignore our issues or insult us.
until they learn that and adapt accordingly, we withhold our support, our votes, and our money, etc.
it's the definition of leverage--using the thing you have that they need to negotiate BEFORE committing to them.
I appreciate your approach.
What our side wants does matter.
My demand - nothing short of this: he MUST adopt Hillary's clean energy advisers.
Adopt her specifics in her plan to take us to the carbon neutral future.
He talks the right talk. But now: walk the walk.
His clean energy plan ignores solar, geothermal and wind power!!!! Only $2 billion for "research" out of $150 billion plan is DUMB. These sources already provide serious power in Europe, we are past the lab stage, ok? Too much emphasis on ethanol, clean coal and nukes. Scrap your advisers. Use hers.
Also renounce and reject his CEO of Exelon lobbyist/energy adviser at the Bipertisan Policy Center who funded his startup run in April 2007 a month after he cosponsored McCain-Lieberman (nukepower bill)
"Votes are not for sale"
So, then, what's the "leverage" meme all about?
PUMA
you're demostrating why you have absolutely no (moral) right to appropriate the PUMA label...
PUMA stands for PARTY UNITY MY ASS. Not "party unity if you make the right promises".
It doesn't mean "I get to whine about how bad the party is while still supporting it 100% by empowering its most corrupt elements." It means "fuck you, and your corrupt system, and your completely unsuitable nominee.".
I beg to differ
To me, "Party Unity
My Ass" means "I'm not buying bullshit, and I'm not staying silent about bullshit."
I don't think it's a commitment to help John McCain get elected by voting for him, or otherwise not voting for his one viable opponent. Those are options some PUMAs will take.
But some will vote for Obama, and I think it's important that making that one's lesser-of-evils decision that way is not tantamount to absorption into a personality cult and losing one's critical faculties, memories, and voice.
We have a two-party system with two shitty candidates. We're trapped in a world we never made. There are vanity/long-term investment/who gives a shit options, sure, but there are two and only two options for who will be president in January 2009.
Deciding it's this crappy Dem does not spell the end of my voice. Apparently, you wish it did.
differ all you want...you're wrong.
PUMA is about NOT voting for Obama.
some PUMAs will vote for McCain.
some PUMAs will vote third party/write-in
some PUMAs will not vote at all.
BUT BEING A PUMA MEANS NOT SUPPORTING OBAMA.
Its about ACTIONS consistent with words -- not just whining about how awful it is that Obama got the nomination, but REJECTING it.
Calling yourself a PUMA is about as accurate as calling yourself Britney Spears.
Your comments can use some background music
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TkIytHD5v9c
stop insulting Paul-he's right
he's absolutely right.
Here's an idea...
Look over Paul's comments from the last several days (we'll leave off the one we deleted where he told a Senior Fellow to "fuck off") and tell me who's being insulting. After that, let's talk.
You know, if two of the smartest warriors I know....
... both of whom I am proud to be associated with, and both of whom have posted many strong, analytical, righteous posts that I am proud that Corrente posted, would unlock their horns and stop pawing the ground for a moment, I, for one, would be very grateful.*
The whole "leverage" concept is probably worth a post. "What PUMA means to me."
Personally, I think that withholding my money, my posting, and putting my efforts into non-Party efforts is a far more effective "United My Ass" than withholding my vote. Even better, this approach takes effect immediately, where the vote only takes place in November. I could be right, and the future lies ahead. If I'm wrong, the post will show.
NOTE * And I say this as someone who has been, in my own quiet, Teddy Bear-like way, in locked horns mode on several occasions in the past.
[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lambert...
its not a question of "what PUMA means to me"
its a question of what "PUMA" means.
And what it means is not supporting Obama.
Basically, an Obama supporter who tries to claim the mantle of a "PUMA" is engaged in ratfucking -- deliberately trying to destroy the "PUMA" brand.
"Don't make Lambert pull the car over ..."
; >
Both stop then....
Pandora's box
I don't know whether to be grateful that his campaign has ignored an entire piece of the American demographic, and thus revealed its true nature...or to wish fervently that he had at least pandered to my concerns. I include the entire campaign in these suggestions as I feel like I would get along fine with the candidate one-on-one...but his advisors are blind to my ilk.
Hillary as VP would seal the deal, but I don't expect it. The VP candidate will matter tremendously to me, however. There are several that would help his cause with me.
A few things I'd really like to see:
1)LESS CONCILIATION on far-out GOP ideas, this includes courting the religious rightwing
2) Acknowledgment that the candidate is indeed middle-aged.
3) FORMAL PLANS NOT VAGUE HINTS about what he will do in office on a wide range of issues: women's rights, workers' rights, the military, a war timetable, the economy, higher education costs, the Supreme Court, restoring civil liberties, rescinding the Executive Orders, banning of torture and prosecution of those who did it and those who enabled it, excellent healthcare for everyone, the environmental crisis. Hope is not a plan.
4) STOP taking long-term Dems for granted. There are many simple things he could do this that would help. Don't assume
5)Hmmm, to be ingnored or to be condescended to? Get a grip. Condescend to me and I won't like you very much. /understatement
A not-so-gentle reminder: 18 million votes are at stake.
Support HR676
(somebody already asked me this a while back)
Actively combat misogyny
Words matter and, of course, the language we use in discussing misogyny reflects our cultural attitudes: misogyny is seen as nothing more than bad manners because the basic human rights of women and girls are considered nothing more than technicalities. For his words to count, he must consistently take this "controversial" (read: just and principled) stand against blowback.
Call it out for what it is: bigotry. Have Obama insist that we, as a country, treat this intolerance and hatred seriously (on par with racism or antisemitism). Recognize that words like "b****" and "c***" are not common foul language, but slurs whose sole point is to dehumanize and demonize a group of people in order to justify their oppression.
Show the real-world implications of a society accepting, even glorifying, misogyny by highlighting the plight of women and girls throughout the world, whether they're facing the Taleban, the feminization of the AIDS epidemic, or the global rape slave trade. Lastly, vow to include gender as a factor in hate crimes legislation (think: the gender-based massacre of little Amish girls in October 2006 as a hate crime).
Oh, and have Obama specifically spurn those who see him as a "bros before hos" candidate. I hate that damn phrase.
I won't hold my breath though.
He CAN do something
He can publicly push for Clinton as Majority Leader of the Senate as consolation of his not picking her as VP (which I hope he does NOT do). In other words, a concrete move which gives the "not Obama" wing of the party real power. I believe the party is so in the tank for him that they will throw Reid under the bus if he wishes it be so.
Promises about "what he will do to appease the little lady (ladies) won't do since Obama's words mean nothing to me, but I would vote for him if I knew there was a real check on his power. Not to be all "Hillarian", it is just a pure political calculation that Clinton is the only person with the force to be that check. And he knows it, which is why I seriously doubt he will ever willingly allow her to be in any position of real authority.
So, vastleft, if you would tell them that we need concrete actions to show we aren't getting thrown under the bus, I've just given you one positve example (actions) and one negative example (lip service).
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Around these parts we call cucumber slices circle bites
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I'm not such a bad guy once you get to know me.
No Dice
Having a split government is a good thing. Especially when the CIC isn't the right one for the job, considering his lack of judgment, adolescent personality, passive aggressive tendencies and the horrible company he's been comfortable keeping for 20+ years.
I'm curious though. How is it that you have gotten this opportunity to speak to Obama insiders? Specifically, have they sought you out? That would be a little creepy, no?
OxyCon
Not necessarily
I talked to Hillary; if VastLeft talks to the Obama campaign, I think that's all good.
[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
FORMAL PLANS NOT VAGUE HINTS
wow, that sums it all up. People voted for Hillary because they liked her specific answers to their concerns. So he needs to say something specific to convince at least some of the 18 million that he is not a con-artist.
Oh, and he could promise to reappoint Patrick Fitzgerald.
For me it's the Health Care
If BHO decides to adopt Hillary's health care plan and put her in charge of enacting this plan, then he's got my support. Right now he just has my vote, and barely so. If he pulls any more pissy Solis moves he's really pushing his luck with not just me but a lot of people who are barely leaning towards him.
I'd try to play dumb, but I'm not that smart.
End the War On Drugs.
Specifically, Legalize It.
(I'm being difficult knowing full well he won't do that so...)
no Hillary on Healthcare
HR 676 is infinitely superior to what she was suggesting, and once Hillary decides something is the right course of action, nothing can disuade her.
Frankly, I didn't want to elect Clinton because of her vote on the war, patriot act, and many other things. And she has been even worse on FISA than Obama.
I understand that at the mention of Hillary's name at last nights event there was booing. Well, there is no possibility of picking up those 18 million votes as long as that goes on. So maybe it is time, past time, for Obama to think about the Frankenstein he has created before it turns on him.
Obama's people? Must be people he "needs," cause he's told
Ed Rendell that "We don't need the people. We just need the checks."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/el...
Rendell, who plans to campaign on Obama's behalf and raise money for him, said tonight's event in Philadelphia is a joint fundraiser for Obama and the cash-strapped Democratic National Committee.
But in a sign of the urgency to raise campaign cash, Rendell said Obama didn't want to reschedule tonight's fundraiser, even though the governor warned him that many Philadelphia donors were headed to the New Jersey shore for the weekend. Rendell said Obama told him: "We don't need the people. We just need the checks."
Uh, you think Rendell was pretty PO'd to relate that little tidbit to the press?
Has the Obama campaign done a WORM
on this yet?
I am feeling so NOT supportive of this candidate.
People, people who need people,
Are the luckiet people in the world....
What Will It Take
Sorry, there is nothing he can do to win my vote. That ship has long sailed.
He has no experience or qualifications that would even entice me to give him a second look. His arrogance is driving me further from the scene. His vote stealing and caucus arm wrestling along with his questionable ties to the Chicago machine have completely turned me off.
The church and Rev. Wright and associates have made me fearful. Why would I vote for him? This man is an empty vessel pushed along by an accommodating media and dirty tactics.
Not sure if you really want or intend to pass this along but you asked.
Pat J
Pat J, I did ask, and I appreciate the answer
Truth is truth. I don't know if shall set us free, but it helps us sleep at night.
If the answer is that a lot of Hillary voters won't vote for Obama, that's reality-based, and we need more of that.
IMHO, as much as some are mad at me for listening to my inner November and deciding I'm going to check the "X' next to the "D," after all, those who are convincingly not coming back don't seem to be playing the leverage game, either. Which is fine, because I'd rather not be playing games.
Communicating what will influence the influentiable, and the influentiable choosing wisely (not "selling out" too cheap or being tricked by a shiny object like a glib speech), is -- I think -- what that leverage is all about.
a question not about policy--
via Craig Crawford--
" " I would have to hire the vetter to vet the vetters."
Obama's cavalier response utterly contradicted his campaign's supposed crusade for reform. Not only did those words come across as tone deaf to the very ethical issues that he has raised in this election, but his remarks sounded like the ethical relativism we so often hear from the Washington business-as-usual crowd that Obama claims to be running against." -- http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/200...
Why is it that with Johnson--as with Wright and Rezko and so many others associated with you-- you never admit a mistake?
And why is it you are choosing DC insiders like Johnson to begin with for such important tasks when everyday you speak of the broken system in DC? (Clinton's pick to vet VPs became Chief of Staff, and Cheney became VP himself)
...
Patrick Fitzgerald
the more I think of it, the more I think that a promise to reapoint Patrick Fitzgerald would go a long way to reassure poeple.
Why?
PatFitz has done nothing to stop the abuse of Executive power in the WH.
Another question-
Why is it that so many people have absolutely false and mistaken impressions about what you'll do as President? And what will you do to be clear about it?
see this-- "But once the former first lady quit the race, Authenreith switched allegiance to Barack Obama, mainly because she thinks that he -- unlike Republican John McCain -- will push for universal healthcare." -- http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-...
Answer to Question
As Paul Krugman put it "the world wants to be deceived so let it be deceived" and not just by Bush.
Or as Bob Somerby would say, we've become a country that makes shit up.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right -- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't. " - Eleanor Roosevelt
yup-i wanna see what their bs response is...
and i'd faint dead away if they answered honestly that they've been lying and allowing misrepresentation of all his positions all along--on purpose.
Yay Vastleft!
I appreciate what you are trying to do and think it is good for the country. But that is just me.
Thanks VL
I respect your position and appreciate your efforts, since apparently some of us, including me, are in the "bargaining" phase now. Although I'm not going to say these "Obama Insiders" are placating you, count me skeptical. Which is why ACTIONS, not WORDS or PROMISES are what I require. I'm certain we will be hearing lots of WORDS and PROMISES as the reality of how deep a fucking hole they dug sinks in.
Apparently Paul and some others are in "no sale" mode. I respect that also greatly.
I'm always for sale though, even if I don't come cheap.
Oh, BTW, you could also tell them that we aren't happy with Obama taking over the DNC and moving it to Chicago to become more thoroughly corrupted than it already is, and we would like to see Dean, Brazille, and Pelosi dumped as well as Reid for Clinton.
Those would also be good gestures on his part. Pass that along too please.
-----------------------------
Around these parts we call cucumber slices circle bites
-----------------------------
I'm not such a bad guy once you get to know me.
I'm not in the bargaining phase at all
reject that frame.
The Democratic Party totally shat the bed with their chosen nominee and the process used to, er, select him. So the interesting work to be done is no longer there.
[x] Very tepidly voting for Obama [ ] ?????. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
To those who have posted (or will post) substantive answers...
... thank you very much. I will read them in detail and will do my best to carry the message to those who would listen. My opportunities to do that may not be grand or immediate, but I'm trying to find ways to get that message through.
And to those who can express their "hell, no, we won't go" messages without vilifying me for being honest about my vote plans and being active in trying to make the vaunted leverage a reality, thank you for your honest opinions, as well. If you're not budging, you're not budging. It's your vote after all, and after this primary campaign, I can't begrudge your seeking alternative paths to a progressive future. I may debate you, but I won't begrudge you.